Financial Crisis

[Heraclitus]

Should be an event associated with Free Market much like the Slave revolt is associated with Slavery, and balances the previously overpowered civic. I think we can all agree that free market + corporations is a overpowered combination and that in the real world the main problem of free markets are downturns, such as the great depression or the current financial crissis.


I think its effect should be the downgrading of many towns to villages or even hamlets a few banks should have a chance of dissapearing, the wall street city should riot and the player then has to choose between:

-a civic change (to a communist or faschist type of economcy or goverment)
-a large bali out (lots and lots of gold, this would encourage civs to keep gold reserves)
-a "small" economic aid package (that has the creates ubnhappines and has a small chance of additional towns being destroyed)
-let the market handle it (the riot ends just as in all the above options but the crisis may continue, the chances of towns downgrading and the baks being scraped, the crissis)


The above is an event of the worst kind, there would be smaller negative events similar in nature and smaller positive events that represent times of prosperity.

There is a chance the crisis spreads to anyone you have open borders with and has a free economy, the chance is negligable with a large bail out, small with small bail and high with civic change or do nothing.


Examples from RL:
* Economic crisis of 2008
* Financial crisis of 2007-2008
* Liquidity crisis of September 2008
* Subprime mortgage crisis
* Russian financial crisis
* Great Depression
* America's Great Depression
* 1997 Asian Financial Crisis
* Overend Gurney crisis - comprised the Panic of 1866 (primarily British)
* Flight-to-Liquidity
* Bailout
* List of recessions in the United States
* Panic of 1819 - pervasive USA economic recession w/ bank failures
* Panic of 1825 - pervasive British economic recession in which many British banks failed, & Bank of England nearly failed
* Panic of 1837 - pervasive USA economic recession w/ bank failures; a 5 yr. depression ensued.
* Panic of 1857 - pervasive USA economic recession w/ bank failures
* Panic of 1873 - pervasive USA economic recession w/ bank failures; a 4 yr. depression ensued.
* Panic of 1893 - pervasive USA economic recession w/ bank failures
* Panic of 1901 - limited to crashing of the New York Stock Exchange
* Panic of 1907 - pervasive USA economic recession w/ bank failures


If more than one civ is in a crisis this may trigger another event that temporarily reduces the number of trade routes by one world wide.

[Robert]

A 'crisis' mostly lasts only a few months. Not a few years. If you downgrade towns then the impact is way too high.
Of course it all seems to be a big deal in RL, but in fact it's not much. Except from the 1928 crisis I don't think there have been any crises so far that had a really huge impact on civilization. (in a way that it should be introduced to civ)

And 2008 is not an economic crisis. The economy is still doing pretty well in most places of the world, even in the USA. It's only financial crisis so far. It can become an economical crisis, but I doubt that. Unless the financial system really starts to fall.

Maybe we'll have a short recession. But certainly not a depression. (except, once again, if the financial market really falls).

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by CyberShy
A 'crisis' mostly lasts only a few months. Not a few years. If you downgrade towns then the impact is way too high.
Of course it all seems to be a big deal in RL, but in fact it's not much. Except from the 1928 crisis I don't think there have been any crises so far that had a really huge impact on civilization.

The panic of 1873 substanially stopped the momentum of liberalism in Europe (and to a lesser degree, in the US). So once a century a big event would make sense.

[LDiCesare]

Except from the 1928 crisis I don't think there have been any crises so far that had a really huge impact on civilization. (in a way that it should be introduced to civ)

The French revolution was born in great part because parisians couldn't buy bread and the economy of the country was catastrophic. Cause wasn't liberalism but rather privileges of nobility and clergy, but still it was lighted by an economic crisis. Consequences include Napoleonic wars, rise of nationalism in Europe, spread of democratic ideas...

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by CyberShy
A 'crisis' mostly lasts only a few months. Not a few years. If you downgrade towns then the impact is way too high.
Of course it all seems to be a big deal in RL, but in fact it's not much. Except from the 1928 crisis I don't think there have been any crises so far that had a really huge impact on civilization. (in a way that it should be introduced to civ)

And 2008 is not an economic crisis. The economy is still doing pretty well in most places of the world, even in the USA. It's only financial crisis so far. It can become an economical crisis, but I doubt that. Unless the financial system really starts to fall.

Maybe we'll have a short recession. But certainly not a depression. (except, once again, if the financial market really falls).

Also you failed to take into account that I proposed that positive random events would also randomly upgrade villages to towns as a representation of good economic fortunes. Also by the time you get these each turn would be a year in any case, so having a depression for one maybe two turns would not be unrealistic.


The three examples provided in this thread of major economic problems affecting the world on the level of civ are all the arguments I need. And the crissis that hit lets say Russia or Argentine had a great effect on the lives of people living there and the power & reputation of those states.


I really can't see why this event would be any less unbalanced or unrealistic than slavery. As it is Free Market has no downsides, and this is off course unrealistic and damaging to game balance.

[Heraclitus]

Also depressions like the "Panic of 1837", the long depression and the great depression lasted for many years.

[pedrojedi]

The concept is cool, but I think it almost deserves a upgraded version of civ, with a little more economic tweaking & effects.

And even though what is happening now is an financial crisis, it surely will be reflecting on real economy, as most of these events come to action on ordinary living days to months later the starting blast.

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by LDiCesare
The French revolution was born in great part because parisians couldn't buy bread and the economy of the country was catastrophic. Cause wasn't liberalism but rather privileges of nobility and clergy, but still it was lighted by an economic crisis. Consequences include Napoleonic wars, rise of nationalism in Europe, spread of democratic ideas...

And WHY was the French economy catastrophic? Because they went massively in debt to support the American rebels against the British Empire. The U.S. was dependent upon France to win their independence, and it cost the French dearly (and then all of Europe due to Napoleon).

[LDiCesare]

Because they went massively in debt to support the American rebels against the British Empire.

Yes, but it was a financial crisis. Cybershy said only the 1928 (should be 29?) crisis had any effect. That's wrong. The financial crisis was not due to free market going amok, but it still was a financial crisis.

[Bkeela]

No thanks. I think there are more than enough nasty events.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by LDiCesare

Yes, but it was a financial crisis. Cybershy said only the 1928 (should be 29?) crisis had any effect. That's wrong. The financial crisis was not due to free market going amok, but it still was a financial crisis.

Well some might argue that slave revolts aren't caused by slavery per se... But you only have them if you have slavery in RL, the same goes for economic crisis.


Also my primary argument here is that we need a way to balance free market which is overpowered. A negative event is how they balanced slavery... so why not free market?

[joncnunn]

I thought I saw a great depression event in the random event xml. It might be one of those turned off via 0% chance of happening.

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by joncnunn
I thought I saw a great depression event in the random event xml. It might be one of those turned off via 0% chance of happening.

Event54
Great Depression
Prereq: at least 1 founded corporation somewhere
Obsolete: None
Active/Weight: 40/100
Result:
1.All players loose 25% of their gold

source: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attach...8&d=1221846108

[johnmcd]

you can also look at the big Dutch tulip crisis, the Spanish inflation caused by south american gold, Wiemar republic hyperinflation and a whole host of other economic catastrophes.

These are events, nothing game changing - Civilisation marches on - but they are a feature of how economies are run.

[Theben]

Should be more like the opposite of a golden age, cities affected lose -1 and -1 per tile that generates 3 or more for 10 turns*game speed.