Guide to running a Specialist Economy?

[Lord Avalon]

The Power of Gold by Dominae is interesting.

[joncnunn]

You might also try the RB Tree Hugger game http://realmsbeyond.net/civ/c4tourney/epic22.html
under the rules listed for the human player; it should be easy to get specialists on that map when you combine it with Forest Preserves available from turn 1.

[wodan11]

I've been browsing a few old threads on this matter lately and trying to play a game or two but I haven't had the time to play properly. I started a game at prince level but that seemed too easy or shall we say too forgiving.

One question I started thinking about was this:

If you have population to run scientists in your pyramids city, should you run them or should you just keep up shields production maintaining only one engineer specialist (when applicable)?

The reason for this is obviously to keep your chance of getting a GE 100%. The downside is of course that I lose 12 beakers per turn + GPP, though that is probably traded for some decent production.

Depends on several things. But my first queston is what do you want the Great Engineer for? Why is a GE so much more useful (to you) than something else? At that point in the game you could probably realize just as much (if not more) benefit from a specialist of another type.

I suppose the question later in the game is also - run just one type of specialist or all types per city? It mostly applies to the GE city since those are the hardest to come by and very useful.

Depends on what type of SE you're running.

If you're not running a Caste SE then it depends on what you're doing. The tough part in the early and mid game is getting the research you need so almost certainly you'll want to run 2 scientists in each city. Unless you're doing a priest SE. The main reason a priest SE works is that it makes 3-4 shrines. This gives you the gold to pay all your maintenance and more, which lets you maximize the slider to turn all your commerce to research.

An engineer SE is really tough to do without Caste System. With Caste, you can run a scientist Super GP Farm. Without it, you're going to be hurting for research and money at the same time, almost certainly, which is a recipe for disaster.

Otherwise, there are several types of Caste SE. Merchant will run mostly if not all merchants. Generally you'll have a GP farm which will run zillions of scientists and then will settle the Great Scientists, making a Science GP Farm which produces 90% of your empire's research.

Caste SE with scientists will run mostly if not all scientists. This can permit a Super GP Farm which maxes Great Merchants (or something else). The merchants would then be settled to create a big money city which funds your whole empire.

One other powerful thing about Caste System is that your Super GP farm can quickly and easily be converted to another type of GPP. Thus, you can churn out a Great Merchant or Great Scientist when you need it to found that Corporation, a Prophet to found that Shrine, etc.

A mixed bag SE is also pretty powerful. Often the great people will be used to create a series of golden ages. Which is why its not necessarily mandatory to always run the SAME specialist across your empire. Plus, this means you don't have to run Caste System and can run Serfdom or something else.

[Sarco]

Thanks a lot for that answer, I've read through a lot of threads but it's hard to pick out the relevant info from the irrelevant

I remember reading a post of yours on CFC saying that a SE that converts to CE around liberalism/democracy (IIRC) was a good bet. I suspect that this is true expecially unless playing for a cultural victory or not playing the Russians/Germans. Which system would work best with that strategy? (Or is there any system that would not work at all)

[wodan11]

Thanks a lot for that answer, I've read through a lot of threads but it's hard to pick out the relevant info from the irrelevant

I remember reading a post of yours on CFC saying that a SE that converts to CE around liberalism/democracy (IIRC) was a good bet. I suspect that this is true expecially unless playing for a cultural victory or not playing the Russians/Germans. Which system would work best with that strategy? (Or is there any system that would not work at all)

It's generally accepted even among the "SE enthusiasts" that a CE is more powerful in the late game, while the SE is more powerful in the early and mid game. Several reasons for that... here are a few off the top of my head.
-- towns take a while to mature before you have Emancipation, so the later in the game the bigger and better your cottage/towns are
-- your cities (health/happy limits) can support fewer pop, so you're working less tiles = fewer cottages to be progressing toward maturation
-- every city usually has strategic, luxury, and food resources that it works anyway, so it's just the couple of cottages past that which are worked... and when the health/happy limits are increased pretty much every extra citizen is an extra cottage being worked
-- GP are more powerful/useful early because they have greater effect. Lighbulb early has more effect because each tech early affects more of the game. Earlier universities 40 turns earlier = 40 more turns working those universities = a lot more research over the span of the game.
-- Same for other things... earlier Shrines, earlier whatever.
-- The GPP progression means the more GP you make the more GPP it takes to make another. Thus, in the "late game" the SE loses steam in this area.

So, the theory behind a SE->CE switch is to leverage the strengths of both systems. Early and mid-game SE. Late game CE.

There are some tricks behind accomplishing a switch to make it really rock.
-- use serfdom. Some of the SE types do not mandate Caste System. So you can run Serfdom which makes your workers more efficient.
-- obviously if you can get Hagia that is beneficial.
-- plan ahead. Figure on starting the switch a bit before you get Emancipation, and completing the switch a bit after you get Emancipation.
-- transform your cities one at a time. A good time is when a city has just produced a GP. Note at this point in the game your workers are running out of things to do anyway. (Unless you have too many workers... see the Serfdom comment. You do NOT want to waste resources making too many workers. Serfdom lets you get away with just a handful.) Send in most of your workers into that city. Start changing the farms to cottages, and most (especially river) mines to windmills. As the food runs dry, go into the city screen and turn "off" your forced specialists so that they go back to citizens again (working those cottages). When done, send the workers to the next city.
-- The absolute LAST thing you'll do is switch to Universal Suffrage. If even then. A CE makes good use of Representation, because of the happy benefit. And because a CE will probably want to keep one city as a GP Farm.
-- Emancipation will mature your cottages VERY fast. Combined with your high city population, you'll be working a lot of them.

A last comment. My personal opinion is that, contrary to popular belief, Slavery is NOT necessarily a friend to a SE over a CE. Early slavery is nice. As is the occasional whip of a maxed population city. But, whether you're running a SE or a CE, whipping is fewer specialists you are running and fewer cottages you're working.

[wodan11]

Oh, I see I missed part of your question. Unless playing for a Cutural Victory (CV)?

There are a couple main kinds of CV. Most of them are best done by having a "normal" game and then at some point switching the culture slider to 90% or 100% and making a speedy push with tons of culture pouring in.

Before that push, what kind of game is best? Honestly it doesn't matter. Any kind of SE, or CE, will do you just as well. What is more important is setting up your Big 3 cities for what they need. You want at least 9 cities in your empire, plus as many religions as you want. (Notable exception: the corporation CV, but even then.) Plus, you want to plan those cities on the "type" of CV you want.

Some types:
-- cottages in your big 3, so that they make lots of commerce, which is then coverted 100% to culture
-- artist specialists in your big 3, which by the by can allow you to continue to run some science on the slider. But, you need 3 cities with a LOT of food resources. It's a rare game you get 3 cities like that. Usually 1. Maybe 2. But 3 is rare.
-- have one of your big 3 be your GP farm, focused on making Great Artists. These are settled in your big 3 (whichever one you think is lagging or will lag behind culture production). Once you get close to winning the game you probably want to save them instead of settling, and do the math so that you send in 2-3 Great Artists to bomb the one furthest behind right on the last turn. Well, it wouldn't be the last turn but for those bombs. Anyway, I'm probably not explaining that well. Ask if it isn't clear.
-- production city, making culture buildings and wonders. This can fit in with most any type of CV.

Is a CV good with a SE->CE switch? Sure. Not especially so, but as good if not more so than running a normal SE or a normal CE all game.

I would suggest mastering the two strategies on their own before trying to do them both in the same game, though.

[wodan11]

Or playing the Russians/Germans? Not sure what you're getting at there.

[Sarco]

Thanks for the long explanations. Perhaps I expressed myself a bit unclear - what I meant with the Russians/Germans was that those two civs have UB which are well suited with a SE even in the late game and thus the benefit of the CE switch would be lesser with them than with other civs.

The reason I got interested in the SE stuff was that I've played CE up until recently and started to find the game a bit boring (though I never managed to learn to specialize cities). Then I discovered SE which made the game a whole new experience. I'll look into the serfdom SE, sounds interesting.

[wodan11]

Thanks for the long explanations. Perhaps I expressed myself a bit unclear - what I meant with the Russians/Germans was that those two civs have UB which are well suited with a SE even in the late game and thus the benefit of the CE switch would be lesser with them than with other civs.

With those two UBs, I think I would say there is less incentive to switch, not that there is less benefit of switching. See the distinction?

The reason I got interested in the SE stuff was that I've played CE up until recently and started to find the game a bit boring (though I never managed to learn to specialize cities). Then I discovered SE which made the game a whole new experience. I'll look into the serfdom SE, sounds interesting.

Gotcha. Definitely, there's more variety with SE and more different kinds of SE than CE. Enjoy experimenting!

[Theben]

-- The absolute LAST thing you'll do is switch to Universal Suffrage. If even then. A CE makes good use of Representation, because of the happy benefit. And because a CE will probably want to keep one city as a GP Farm.

Singled this out as it's the only thing I disagree with in your post.

Late in the game, one should have acquired sufficient luxuries, and have enough cities, that the happy benefit from Representation is muted. And switching to a CE means less specialists- so no +3 per specialist. Only if I had settled a LOT of specialists in my Oxford U city would I consider the idea.

Uni Sufferage OTOH will grant you both +1 per town and the ability to buy items in your queue right away. And none of this is news to you, so I don't see how you can advocate Rep over Uni Suff.

[wodan11]

Singled this out as it's the only thing I disagree with in your post.

Late in the game, one should have acquired sufficient luxuries, and have enough cities, that the happy benefit from Representation is muted. And switching to a CE means less specialists- so no +3 per specialist. Only if I had settled a LOT of specialists in my Oxford U city would I consider the idea.

Uni Sufferage OTOH will grant you both +1 per town and the ability to buy items in your queue right away. And none of this is news to you, so I don't see how you can advocate Rep over Uni Suff.

If you're switching from SE to CE, you get Towns pretty fast, but not instantaneously. Thus why I said switching from Rep to US would be the last thing you do in the transition.

Yes, you have more luxuries, etc, but you also have more population in each city. It tends to be a wash in most games. Depends on your empire size, of course. The larger your empire, the more luxuries you will have, and the less Rep's happy benefit will aid you. Also, the smaller % of your total # of cities gain the benefit.