Build/growth order for cities AFTER the capital

[NFIH]

Seeing the other thread about worker/workboats reminds me of another issue I face in each game: what to do with each settled city's build order after the capital.

My usual strategy is to let the capital grow to two or three population. Then build a worker. After the first and subsequent settlers get out and found their cities I'm often unsure of what should be built first in those newly settled cities.

Should I immediately go worker=>other unit/building or, like my capital, let it grow to pop 2 or 3 before building another worker?

What I currently do in those new cities is build an archer first (particularly because I play with raging barbs on), then granary or barracks, then worker. Sometimes I'll build the worker before the granary/barracks if the pop has hit at least two.

My capital continues to build all the settlers while remaining at around three pop or so.

Is this right, or should my new cities (closer to the "front") immediately start building a settler?

[wodan11]

IMO saying your capital should always build all settlers is not necessarily optimal. Personally I would build it in the city with the most excess food/hammer total, and I would allow that city to grow (by building units or whatever) until it reached the best pop size. But realize that the optimal city will change over course of the game. At some point it's good to switch what city builds the settlers & workers.

Combine that with the fact that it's occasionally good to chop a settler, and you have a big mix.

[Supr49er]

What level are you playing?

On Emperor, I usually push out Settlers/Workers with my capital, build a barracks in my second city and produce units.

I can usually get 4-6 cities before the economy tanks.

[NFIH]

Originally posted by Supr49er
What level are you playing?

On Emperor, I usually push out Settlers/Workers with my capital, build a barracks in my second city and produce units.

I can usually get 4-6 cities before the economy tanks.

Noble, normal speed. And your situation is exactly the one in which I typically find myself--four to six cities before research and funds drops off. I also like to immediately build a barracks in the second and third cities if they are looking ideal as military pumps--but I'll usually interrupt the build and switch to a worker once the pop hits three, and then switch back.

@wodan11: My capital doesn't exclusively build settlers. It *mostly* builds settlers simply because it's the most advanced one with the most hammers, so it builds quickest. I'll also build an early wonder there like the Great Wall.

[joncnunn]

More often than not my capital is generaly the fastest place for settlers for the first several settlers but there are exceptions.

The major exceptions being when as Dutch, I Chariot rushed and as Incans, I Q rushed the other player on my starting landrush when the AI's former capital was the fatest place for settlers.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by NFIH
@wodan11: My capital doesn't exclusively build settlers. It *mostly* builds settlers simply because it's the most advanced one with the most hammers, so it builds quickest.

Do you realize that the amount of extra food is added to the hammers? So, a city with lots of food will build quicker than a city with the most hammers.

[Nikomakkos]

Guys, I can't repeat this often enough. Most often it's best to go straight for workers. When you wait for your city to grow before building a worker, it is growing slowly (unimproved) and for each population point you only get one extra production point (food/hammer) for a worker, so having the city bigger doesn't hasten the production of a worker that much.

This is because each population point takes up 2 food and unimproved tiles most often give you 3 food/hammer at best, which makes only 1 surplus to help build the worker, while at size one you already have 4 (3 from city square plus 3 from worked tile minus 2 for the one population).

So the worker gets finished earlier if you don't wait for the city to grow. Then with the worker you can improve the land, making the city grow far more faster than it would have. This is better by far.

But it depends on the situation, as everything else. For example if you're going for a religion and don't have the necessary tech to improve anything useful, then of course building a worker would be useless.

[Nikomakkos]

As for the cities after the capital, well you should think about what is the priority for your empire. First you need to get the cities up and running and being productive. That you do by making their borders 'pop' (growing culture with monument), and making their population grow and improving their land. So there you have three things. You need to build a monument and you need workers to improve the land.

Next priority is defense. Let's say you have 3 or 4 cities. If your capital is not building units (maybe you're going for a wonder) then the other cities need to do that. If one of those other cities has lousy production, build a granary or a library there and start growing cottages. Because the third priority after defense is the economy.

Don't build any archers. Researching Bronze Working right away has so many benefits. You can chop trees and sacrifice population (slavery) to haste production significantly, and you can see copper on the map for city placement. And it's a lot better to have axemen and a few spearmen for defense than archers. Because enemies will be attacking with melee or mounted units. If they attack with archers, well axemen are stronger. Also, this means your forces are a lot better outside of your cities so you can preserve your improvements.

I like to build a barracks before starting on units, unless the situation calls for immediate defense.

So, to break it down, the build queue for your cities other than the capital:

1. Monument (good to chop trees to get it quick)
2. Worker (good to chop trees to get it quick)
3. Improve the land with worker
4. Barracks
5. Units (axemen first then spearmen)
6. Maybe granary if only one or no food resource
7. Library unless you need this city to build units.

For steps 1 and 2 you need a worker to go along with your settler if you want to be able to chop. This is why I always build two workers before a settler in my capital.

You need to figure out in which cities it's best to build settlers when the time is right. Most often it's the capital or a city with abundant food. Concerning how quickly to expand, you have to weigh the importance of securing land before others against slowing down your economy and thinning out your defenses. Sometimes it's better to let the AI take the land while building up your infrastructure, get a tech lead and research Iron Working and Construction for swordsmen and catapults to take the land from him.

Once you have your first few cities properly up and running and defended, you're ready for whatever strategy you go for. I recommend starting building cottages early, because for more cities and bigger military you need a strong economy. It's also nice to keep up in tech, or even have a lead.

But of course each game has unique situations. This above applies to the typical game.

Does this help or am I just waisting time? Anyway, this is what I've come to learn through experience, and reading strategy guides and just thinking obsessively about the game. I used to play on Monarch for a long time, but now usually on Emperor. Recently I mostly enjoy talking obsessively about the game .

[rah]

Since my first settler doesn't go out unescorted, my first build in the second city is usually a worker unless due to resource/city placement I really need that first culture pop. If I'm not creative and I need that pop, then it will be monument first. If there's a food source nearby, it will be grow to size two and finish the monument with the whip with the excess going towards the production of worker. The next build is start a second worker but switch to a non-warrior unit when the resource is hooked up. Finish the worker when the unit is done.
Then depending on what my cap is doing, hopefully the second city has some hammers to crank a few more units. If my cap is tied up on a wonder, my second city may switch to a settler.

[NFIH]

Originally posted by wodan11

Do you realize that the amount of extra food is added to the hammers? So, a city with lots of food will build quicker than a city with the most hammers.

Yes, but in a new city, I won't have yet had a worker to improve any useful food resources. And if I do decide to first build a worker in the new city, my already existing capital will have been well on its way to building another settler anyway.

[NFIH]

Originally posted by Nikomakkos
Don't build any archers. Researching Bronze Working right away has so many benefits. You can chop trees and sacrifice population (slavery) to haste production significantly, and you can see copper on the map for city placement. And it's a lot better to have axemen and a few spearmen for defense than archers. Because enemies will be attacking with melee or mounted units. If they attack with archers, well axemen are stronger. Also, this means your forces are a lot better outside of your cities so you can preserve your improvements.

I only occasionally forego archers. Here's the issue: I play with raging barbs on. Archers build faster that axes so if I'm trying to settle cities, I need to get the settlers and the units that will escort them out as fast as possible. The archers are also perfect for garrisoning the newly settled city and sometimes allows me to get away with not having to build a defensive unit in the new city right away and instead spend the turns on something else. And until barb axes show up, archers are fine for escort.

So, to break it down, the build queue for your cities other than the capital:

1. Monument (good to chop trees to get it quick)
2. Worker (good to chop trees to get it quick)
3. Improve the land with worker
4. Barracks
5. Units (axemen first then spearmen)
6. Maybe granary if only one or no food resource
7. Library unless you need this city to build units.

For steps 1 and 2 you need a worker to go along with your settler if you want to be able to chop. This is why I always build two workers before a settler in my capital.

Really? Two workers before even your first settler? That seems like an awful slow-down to the growth of your empire right at the beginning. But I've often wondered if it's the better option--and in fact when I first started to play Civ IV I also built two workers.

[Blaupanzer]

The economy tanking is built into the code. Citymax=6 in the lower levels. The sixth city cranks the maintenance costs way up in all cities, for both you and the AI. As I interpret this, this will happen again on 12, on 18, etc. I could be wrong on that, but that's how it looks. Oddly, probably for AI benefit, the citymax number actually goes up on the highest levels to 7, then 8. Of course, at those levels the player is paying 100% or greater cost on everything, while the AI is paying a much lower %.

[Nikomakkos]

Originally posted by NFIH
Really? Two workers before even your first settler? That seems like an awful slow-down to the growth of your empire right at the beginning. But I've often wondered if it's the better option--and in fact when I first started to play Civ IV I also built two workers.

If you woodchop a worker first and then have both chop a settler, the settler should only be delayed by no more than 2 turns compared to if you use your first worker to chop a settler right away. Since you can have a worker for each city this way, you quickly gain these 2 turns back and more.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by NFIH


Yes, but in a new city, I won't have yet had a worker to improve any useful food resources.

And, you won't have yet had a worker to improve any useful hammer resources.

[NFIH]

Originally posted by Nikomakkos


If you woodchop a worker first and then have both chop a settler, the settler should only be delayed by no more than 2 turns compared to if you use your first worker to chop a settler right away. Since you can have a worker for each city this way, you quickly gain these 2 turns back and more.

Does this only hold true if you have X number of forests to chop? For example, if I've only got four forests in my fat cross (which happens to be the case in my current game), would your way still be faster or do I need five or six forests? (Not sure about the math.)