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Why I hate all or nothing strats.

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  • Why I hate all or nothing strats.

    I've been playing Beyond the Sword for quite a while now, usually on a standard size random temperature etc fractal map on either monarch or emperor. I generally go for a typical adaptable strategy involving quick early expansion combined with taking 2-3 good nearby cities with a Swordsman rush. This works for virtually any civ and can be adapted for the situation.

    I thought I'd try something different and have some fun with Quecha rushes. So I start up the game and, hey, I'm on a decent land mass except that the chokepoint between me and everybody else is held by Sitting Bull. And he has his capital on some hills. And I find, through Bronze Working, that he has some bronze right next to his capital.

    So I chop out like 8 quechas right off the bat because if he gets Axemen it's all over. Except it turns out that it was over in 4000 BC, 'cause his archers all have Combat I, City Garrison I, and Drill I and sometimes Drill 2. And both his cities (he plopped down a second right as my army arrived) are on hills. I try to take his capital anyway since it only has 2 archers on it and he's done for if he loses it.

    You can guess how that turned out. I believe my FIFTH quecha attacking his 2 archers had like an 11% chance of winning. The eighth was up to like 40%... against one of the archers.

    So that's why I don't like gimmicky all or nothing strategies. Sure, it takes almost no time to try and you can start over if the guy next to you is a bad civ on a chokepoint, but that's annoying and cheesy. Better to use a balanced civ and a strategy you can adapt to the situation. Although a protective civ with all cities on hills on a chokepoint between you and everybody else isn't exactly a stellar starting location with any civ, I guess.

  • #2
    The problem seems to me rather that you stuck with an ill-advised strategy after you had enough information to (a) determine that it was ill-advised, and (b) adjust accordingly. Huayna's industrious and financial. Surely you can find some way to put those traits to good use other than a quecha rush.

    If your point is simply that the quecha rush (or other "gimmicky" strategy) won't work in every situation, that's a given. In fact, that's even true for "balanced" strategies, which may not do any one thing well enough to counter an early "gimmick" strategy.
    Solomwi is very wise. - Imran Siddiqui

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    • #3
      An early rush on a protective civ will tend to fail, no matter which civ is on the attack. You should have known that, but thanks for reminding the rest of us.
      No matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
      "I played it [Civilization] for three months and then realised I hadn't done any work. In the end, I had to delete all the saved files and smash the CD." Iain Banks, author

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      • #4
        Of course it wasn't mentioned that the Native American's dog warrior doesn't require copper to be hooked up. It's available right away when BW is researched. Another reason that they're a poor target for a quecha rush.
        It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
        RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

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        • #5
          IMO Sitting Bull is a nightmare to have as a neighbor. Not because he's especially antagonistic like Monty or somebody, but because of the above, plsu the huge fact that in my experience he REXs quite well. In most of my games find myself eyeing some tasty city spots, then I turn around and there are wigwams in all of them!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by wodan11
            IMO Sitting Bull is a nightmare to have as a neighbor. Not because he's especially antagonistic like Monty or somebody, but because of the above, plsu the huge fact that in my experience he REXs quite well. In most of my games find myself eyeing some tasty city spots, then I turn around and there are wigwams in all of them!
            This has also been my experience. No other leader as a neighbor makes me groan as audibly as Sitting Bull. The guy is an ever-expanding fortress.
            I keep a record of all my civ games here.

            aÅ¡tassi kammu naklu Å¡a Å¡umeri ṣullulu akkadû ana Å¡utēÅ¡uri aÅ¡ṭu
            "I am able to read texts so sophisticated that the Sumerian is obscure and the Akkadian hard to explain" (King Assurbanipal of Assyria 7th century BC)

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            • #7
              You need a good tech lead to take out the Sioux, er, Native Americans. Being an aggressive civ also helps. He does REX well in my experience.
              No matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
              "I played it [Civilization] for three months and then realised I hadn't done any work. In the end, I had to delete all the saved files and smash the CD." Iain Banks, author

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              • #8
                The reason why i hate all-or-nothing-strats is because my gaming-buddy tends to apply them, and if he does succeed, he is almost bound to win and if he doesnt, he folds up (and blames the computer-calcs to be rigged against him as a human player). But that´s not a problem with the game, but with the player.

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                • #9
                  All or nothing strats can occationally be used to huge advantage. It all depends on the situation. They can all be countered I think, if you're playing MP. Maybe I shouldn't comment on MP since I have very little experience with that, but I guess that if you're facing an opponent playing as Incas, you'd be pumping out warriors if he attacks you? Then you'd be able to equal his numbers and defend your cities, right?

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                  • #10
                    Yes MP is a bit different, since most players are trying to hook up copper or horses early. Unless I'm protective or have a one of the archer UU's, archery is not a priority so the quecha advantages doesn't come into play.

                    And Yes Unimatrix11, it either works and then they craw about how great they are, or it doesn't, and it was just poor luck.
                    It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
                    RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

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                    • #11
                      Not that others haven't pointed this out, but if your entire game was based on an early rush, you couldn't have picked a worse target.
                      I'm consitently stupid- Japher
                      I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Nikomakkos
                        All or nothing strats can occationally be used to huge advantage. It all depends on the situation. They can all be countered I think, if you're playing MP. Maybe I shouldn't comment on MP since I have very little experience with that, but I guess that if you're facing an opponent playing as Incas, you'd be pumping out warriors if he attacks you? Then you'd be able to equal his numbers and defend your cities, right?
                        Not necessarily The key to an MP rush is to not tip your hand until you have already gone to extravagant lengths to build up a huge force (ie, slaving/chopping as many units as is physically possible). Then, hopefully your target 'wasted' some time building non-military, and you are able to get the drop on him.

                        Then, there's also the Choke...
                        <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
                        I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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                        • #13
                          Even cats have a hard time against Sitting Bulls Archers, and if he upgrades them to Crossbows and Longbows, you have to wait for Rifles to take his hill cities.

                          Cut off his expansion if you can by settling the land yourself.
                          And indeed there will be time To wonder, "Do I dare?" and, "Do I dare?". t s eliot

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                          • #14
                            Ooh, I'm looking forward to hearing about the Choke!

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