Worker 1st or workboat?

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Unimatrix11
Certainly. But that doesnt make joncnunn statement invalid, since the question is ´worker or workboat first ?´. He might build a warrior before both, while researching fishing and then build a workboat before he builds a worker. I guess that is what he wanted to say.

Except this changes things significantly because the question then becomes one of having to wait an even longer time to improve terrain.

Without fishing, I would probably go for worker first.

[DirtyMartini]

Originally posted by couerdelion


Except this changes things significantly because the question then becomes one of having to wait an even longer time to improve terrain.

Without fishing, I would probably go for worker first.

Yeah, to me this is the real question. If I start with Fishing -- no brainer: workboat first by working a 2 or 3 hammer tile. If I don't start with fishing, but have a coastal/seafood start, I'm never sure what to do. I usually start by researching fishing while building a warrior or worker, then switch to workboat as soon as fishing is researched. I usually end up feeling like this was suboptimal and maybe I should go --

1) build worker, set research toward bronze working
2) once bronzeworking researched, set to fishing
3) once worker completes, chop out 2nd worker or warrior while fishing researches
4) chop out workboat once fishing is completed.

[rah]

Except if there are no other beaker tiles and you're financial.
Then it's best to go fishing get the work boat and shave some turns off researching bronze work. Save those trees for the settler and workers.

But your response is exactly why it's a great game.
Halfway through a strat believing it might be not optimal.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by DirtyMartini


Yeah, to me this is the real question. If I start with Fishing -- no brainer: workboat first by working a 2 or 3 hammer tile. If I don't start with fishing, but have a coastal/seafood start, I'm never sure what to do. I usually start by researching fishing while building a warrior or worker, then switch to workboat as soon as fishing is researched. I usually end up feeling like this was suboptimal and maybe I should go --

1) build worker, set research toward bronze working
2) once bronzeworking researched, set to fishing
3) once worker completes, chop out 2nd worker or warrior while fishing researches
4) chop out workboat once fishing is completed.

I guess the worker first question then depends on what resources are available and what start techs I have. The coastal starts with seafood and other resources but without the fishing tech can be problematic for deciding how to begin. If there are plenty of things for a worker to do (allowing for one tech researched while worker is being built), then I'd be inclined to skip fishing and get the land improved first. An example would be someone with Agro/Mining start with Animals or Grain and some hills. The only problem with this is that there is less likelihood is that you won't get too many land resources if you have already for seafood ones so your worker will not have much to do at the start.

[Risa]

Always worker first, unless there is no resourse to improve, and not start with mining (so bronze working is too far away). In those cases, I would consider settler first.

The only time that workboat first worth considering is that there is 0/3/0 plain hill forest tile and the seafood is coastal fish, and the leader is neither Exp nor Imp.

[Addled Platypus]

will a work boat connect cities ??

let fish benefit more than 1 city

give me workers

[couerdelion]

I think you'll find that workers are no good at connecting cities when you only have one

[Blaupanzer]

Sailing connects coastal cities a lot quicker than the roads will. And, as couerdelion points out, you can't hook up phantom future cities.

[joncnunn]

Exactly; without Fishing in such a start I build a Scout if I started with Hunting and Warior otherwise while waiting for Fishing. Then Work Boat then Worker.

Originally posted by Unimatrix11
Certainly. But that doesnt make joncnunn statement invalid, since the question is ´worker or workboat first ?´. He might build a warrior before both, while researching fishing and then build a workboat before he builds a worker. I guess that is what he wanted to say.

[Yarco_TW]

Originally posted by Colm
I would choose the worker. The building time for a boat is just too long.

If worker depresses growth, so does workboat. I always choose 3 hammers 0 food tile to build workboat. Only then I let the town grow fast.

Fast growth depresses happiness anyway.

In case there is good fish resource boat goes first, worker only after BW.

[Diadem]

This thread has too many opinions, and too little math.

On normal speed:
- A workboat takes 30 hammers
- A worker takes 60 hammers
- A warrior takes 15 hammers
- A settler takes 100 hammers
- City needs 22 food to go from size 1 to size 2
- City needs 24 food to go from size 2 to size 3

Let's assume a pretty standard picture. A city with a coastal clam and a rivered corn. Also avaible are 3/0/1, 2/1/0, 1/2/0 and 0/3/0 tiles. No plainshill start. The corn would take 5 turns to improve (but the last turn the city can immidiately benefit from it!).

This btw a comparison that's advantagous towards worker first. If it were fish instead of clam, or the corn were not rivered (or rice) obviously a workboat would become (even) more attractive.

Let's compare different strategies. Let's start comparing worker -> workboat with workboat -> worker.

WORKER FIRST
We produce 4 a turn. So our worker is done in 15 turns. We obviously work the 3/0/1 tile for 15 bonus commerce. 0 overflow, no food production. Next we go workboat. Work 0/3/0 for 4 turns. Then 6/0/1 for 4 and city pops. Then 0/3/0 and 6/0/1 for 3 more turns.
NET RESULT: 26 turns, 2 hammers, 14/24 foodbox, 22 commerce, 11 workerturns.

WORKBOAT FIRST
We use the 0/3/0 tile. Workboat in 8 turns. 2 overflow. No growth, no commerce. Next we go worker. Use 4/0/2 tile. Worker in 12 turns. Two overflow. Net result: 20 turns, 2 hammers overflow, 0/22 foodbox, 24 bonus commerce. 0 workerturns. We have 6 turns left with our workboat start. Just enough to pop our city.
NET RESULT: 26 turns, 8 hammers, 2/24 foodbox, 36 commerce, 6 workerturns.

WORKBOAT FIRST WITH GROWTH
We use tiles such that completion of workboat coincides with growth. Actually the best way to do this is start working 3/0/1 for 7 turns, then 1/2/0 for 1 more. City pops, 0/24 food, 10 hammers, 7 commerce. Now work 2/1/0 and 0/3/0 for 5 hammers a turn. Workboat done in 4 more turns. Now work 4/0/2 and 3/0/1 for worker. Takes 10 turns. Result: 21 turns, 0 hammers overflow, 0/24 foodbox, 37 bonus commerce. Then we let the city grow for 5 turns to reach our comparison point at 26 turns. Last turn using improved corn.
NET RESULT: 26 turns, 5 hammers, 28/24 foodbox, 52 commerce, 5 workerturns. (notice the food. It means we've actually just reached size 3).

The workboat with growth clearly seems the best strategy. Much to my own surprise, actually. I always thought a 0/3/0 workboat was clearly the best option!


In case you're interested. With warrior first I got these results:

WARRIOR -> WORKER -> WORKBOAT
Net result: 28 turns, 1 hammer, 10/24 foodbox, 10 commerce, 6 workerturns. Plus a warrior.

WARRIOR -> WORKBOAT -> WORKER
Net result: 26 turns, 3 hammers, 2/24 foodbox, 12 commerce, 0 workerturns. Plus a warrior.

So warrior first actually kinda sucks. The last option might look interesting, but remember that with 0 workerturns we haven't upgraded our corn yet, so our growth-speed is very slow!

It would be interesting to redo this for different starting position. I wonder if a 0/3/0 workboat fares better with fish!

[jackal@ns]

worker. i use a financial civ that starts with agriculture. i always find a resource within the first 5 or 6 turns by scouting around if necessary. running on marathon this saves me from having to spend a significant number of turns to research a starting tech that i dont really need when i'm beelining first bronze working then priesthood - writing so i can be positive of snagging CoL w/ the Oracle. And as well snapping up stonehenge prior to the build of the oracle, (both built in my second city +4 GP)...

[Albin]

Whats about WORKBOAT FIRST as fast as possible with 0/3/0, but then let the city grow with a warrior?

[rah]

I've done that in an SP game but wouldn't risk it in an MP game. (unless it was obvious that I had started on a long narrow penninsula where I would have plentyof warning of someone else showingup

[Theben]

Originally posted by Albin
Whats about WORKBOAT FIRST as fast as possible with 0/3/0, but then let the city grow with a warrior?

Unless you really need a warrior for some reason (scouting?), I don't see any benefit in doing this, as having a worker and/or workboat 1st will help you more in the long run. I imagine if you see a hut or 2 nearby and can't reach them soon, building a warrior (or better a scout) would be worthwhile.