Rate of Expansion

[The Priest]

One tactic I have found works quite well in many situations is to get your capital quite large before you start to build settlers. On most maps, there is quite a lot of space between civs - you are not actually in a competition for space in the first couple of millenia. The point really is how many cities can you plant by 1 AD, and how much space has the AI grabbed. So the issue is how to build the biggest number of settlers by 500 BC, not how quickly can you get the first one built.

If we look at the mechanics of it, ever tile that is worked which brings in a comination of more than 2 food/production will make your settler build faster. So settlers are going to be produced faster by a captial with say six population each working a good tile, than by a smaller city.

So if you have a start with say two sea food resources, a cow, a couple of hills to mine and a floodplain, you will build your settlers much much faster if you get all of those into production and then start to build.

Of course this takes some nerve - the AI having two or three cities a piece when you only have one - and means you need to ensure there are other good things for your city to build (get the techs for some buildings). But i find I can then be knocking out settlers (and indeed the workers to support them) very quickly, and within thirty turns (depending on game speed) you have planted five or six cities.

I guess what i mean is that you need to think carefully what is the point when land will start to be scarce. On overcrowded maps it is over the third city, so yes get buildign early. But on many its whether you get six or ten, and given that the AI doesn't go into for choking etc., getting the first couple out first doesn't really matter.

[Blaupanzer]

The Priest, the first couple of cities post the capitol are built to bring resources within your cultural borders, most especially metals and horses as noted above. Possession of these resources affects your army structure, garrison capability, and ultimately your power. Waiting to build cities until later can slow down garrison development, acquisition of resources, and general population and resource development. If copper (say) and horses both showed in your existing capitol cultural border, you could wait a little while. Otherwise do not wait 2 millenia for your second city or two more millenia for the other 5 or 6. At Prince and higher, the AI will eat your lunch.

(In MP, I suspect the whole strategy would be regarded as ridiculous.)

[rah]

Agreed, unless copper or horses popped in your capital's BFC. There's nothing worse than being eliminated early in an MP game by 1 or 2 chariots.

[jbp26]

[SIZE=1]
- use scientists to stop city growth, while building something else than settlers/workers (otherwise, there would be no reason to stop city-growth) until GS pops up.

libraries/scientists are vital to your research effort in the initial expansion boom- but i don't agree with using them to stop growth. slow it down, sure, but you always want your cities to be constantly growing, otherwise you are wasting food resources every turn. once you get to the population cap, the boost in hammers from whipping two citizens is too important to give up. so you should be in a constant state of growing to limit, whipping, regrowing, etc. the trick is timing it so that your net unhappiness remains as minimized as possible.

[snoopy369]

Uni refuses to use slavery, hence his language.

[The Priest]

The Priest, the first couple of cities ... At Prince and higher, the AI will eat your lunch.

Simply not true. I win very happily and comfortably most of the time on Emperor. Get down off your high horse and open your mind ...

(In MP, I suspect the whole strategy would be regarded as ridiculous.)

Of course, but we are not talking about MP. MP requires different strategies. Frequenly things are said on here about A or B being necessary when they are simply not in SP. Playing SP as if it is MP is not wise.

I stick by my point - expansion can be hugely faster on many map if you get your capital up to the population when it fully uses the good resources around it before you build settlers.

[wodan11]

IMO true settler first from 4000BC is not a good ROI. Some people would argue that though. But I also think that there's a point of diminishing returns... maxing out your capitol (or nearly so) is also not the best ROI you can get.

It varies from game to game, of course... the terrain will decide a lot. What tiles benefit most from improvement and being worked, and how many of such tiles there are. Also what other good city sites nearby there are, and what tiles they have.

[Krill]

The best settler first you can get is playing an imp civ, settling on a (marble or stone)/plains/hill and working a forest hill, for 9 hpt, a 12 turn settler. Even then, you have to be careful not to lose the opening warrior/scout so that you can actualy find somewhere to settle. But it does go well with trying to found a religion asap, or trying to find a resource and rushing by researching AH or BW.

[The Priest]

It varies from game to game, of course... But it does go well with trying to found a religion asap

Definitely agree it varies - all about responding in the best way to the map variables and initial terrain.

And religions. I agree founding an early religion can work well with a settler first lead. It also works well if you are in coastal start and are building two or three workboats first (which then makes settlers and workers roll off the production lines very quickly). While those workboats are building, there isn't the rush to get worker focused techs, so go for the religion. Double bonus of course because if you found a religion in a coastal city is spreads much more quickly.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by Krill
The best settler first you can get is playing an imp civ, settling on a (marble or stone)/plains/hill and working a forest hill, for 9 hpt, a 12 turn settler. Even then, you have to be careful not to lose the opening warrior/scout so that you can actualy find somewhere to settle. But it does go well with trying to found a religion asap, or trying to find a resource and rushing by researching AH or BW.

Agree with all that, except for it going well with religion founding. Your capitol will almost always grow to size 2 before you generate the settler (except when working a forest, but in those cases you wouldn't be trying to found a religion because you don't get commerce from a forest). So, by going settler first you give up the X turns of commerce you would generate from the 2nd citizen. That can be critical lost commerce which loses you the chance to found the religion.

[Krill]

That depends on the difficulty level; up to prince it's fine, if you start with myst (probably should have said I wouldn't go for religion off the bat if I did not start with myst).

[The Priest]

So, by going settler first you give up the X turns of commerce you would generate from the 2nd citizen. That can be critical lost commerce which loses you the chance to found the religion.

Yes that is the danger, which is why combining early religion with workboats seems to work so well.

The big thing there though is the number of other civs. The number of religions doesn't change (maybe it should) so founding an early religion isn't too hard with six AI, but with 14 it is almost impossible.

[mrp]

Me I jump on one of the religions to have holy city I do it all the time with 18 civs on like monarch or Emperor. After all you have to learn the worker abilities and writing is down the line but religion can easily be learn. Usually either Hindu or Judiasm then after religion I get workers. Basically I let the capital city hit its pop cap and build a barracks or something

[Supr49er]

I find getting one of the early religions too risky on emperor level.

I build what the map (and my civ) dictates.
e.g. Workboats if I have fishing and seafood.

Founding one of the later religions is a realistic goal for me.

[Blaupanzer]

Originally posted by The Priest Get down off your high horse and open your mind ...

I stick by my point - expansion can be hugely faster on many map if you get your capital up to the population when it fully uses the good resources around it before you build settlers.

I'm not sure how high my horse is; but the rider is clear-headed.

My experience at Prince-level is that the barbarians will be up to axemen and swordsmen before my capitol will be up to using all its good resources. These can kill my workers, my settlers, and my city if I have not mined metal and corraled horses. Of course, I use aggressive AI and raging barbarians, so perhaps Emporer-level without those offers a less intense beginning?