Apostolic Palace Doesn't Make Sense

[Dactyl]

The way the Apostolic Palace works doesn't make sense to me. Here's what happened in a recent game. I had eight cities. Three of my cities were Buddhist, but they were also Confucian since all eight of my cities were Confucian. Confucianism was my state religion. One of the cities which was also Buddhist was Cumae. When it had been in the possession of the Romans a group of roving barbarians took the city. In turn, I took it from the barbarians.

A while later, there was this vote to return the city to the Romans. I defied the resolution, intending to hold onto it in any case. I paid the price with disorder in my three Buddhist cities. A little while later, the same vote came up again. I was afraid of even more problems, so I voted against the resolution. However, it passed, and I lost the city. I was so angered that I quit the game. I could understand being forced to give up the city if Buddhism had been my state religion, but not when only a few of my cities were.

[wodan11]

You weren't forced to give up the city. You had a choice: defy the resolution (and suffer the penalty), or give it up.

Or is there something else you're asking? I really don't see a problem there.

Wodan

[Willem]

Is there a time period for the unhappines causes by defying a resolution? I had the same thing happen to me once with a city I had established myself. At first I defied the resolution but was dismayed at all the unhappiness it caused, so I reloaded a previous save and decided to just declare war and take it back. I thought it was a bit ridiculous that I was being forced to give away a city I had founded myself. A conquered city I can understand, but not one that another civ has absolutely no claim on. Other than having a strong cultural presence in the area.

[wodan11]

The culture is the claim. Basically if some of your populace belongs to another culture, then that's the risk you take. It has nothing to do with who founded the city.

[smbakeresq]

What doesnt make sense to me is when you control a religion, and one of the nations you spread the religion to builds the AP. It benefits you more then them, but I guess they a have a seat at the table so that is enough

[TriMiro]

I think there should be an option to vote against an AP resolution and only if it passes should one get the chance to defy the resolution.

Once you defy a resolution there should be no penalty to defy the same resolution again.

[Unimatrix11]

Well, Willem asked an interesting question, and i´d be curious for the answer: When You defy a resolution (AP or UN), how long does the unhappyness last ? Will it be down to 0 next time a resolution comes around in any case ?

[rah]

The silliness of some of the possible scenarios is the main reason I check no diplo victory. The same problems with vassals made me check that no option also (especially the bug). But at least they made some effort to fix that to make it playable.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by TriMiro
I think there should be an option to vote against an AP resolution and only if it passes should one get the chance to defy the resolution.

This is a very sensible suggestion, although I doubt that it will ever be implemented in an official patch.

BTW, is there any penalty if you vote to defy a resolution that would not have passed anyway if you simply voted "no"?

RJM

[eris]

Re: Apostolic Palace Doesn't Make Sense

Originally posted by Dactyl
The way the Apostolic Palace works doesn't make sense to me. Here's what happened in a recent game. I had eight cities. Three of my cities were Buddhist, but they were also Confucian since all eight of my cities were Confucian. Confucianism was my state religion. One of the cities which was also Buddhist was Cumae. When it had been in the possession of the Romans a group of roving barbarians took the city. In turn, I took it from the barbarians.

A while later, there was this vote to return the city to the Romans. I defied the resolution, intending to hold onto it in any case. I paid the price with disorder in my three Buddhist cities. A little while later, the same vote came up again. I was afraid of even more problems, so I voted against the resolution. However, it passed, and I lost the city. I was so angered that I quit the game. I could understand being forced to give up the city if Buddhism had been my state religion, but not when only a few of my cities were.

The "makes sense" part is whether you can imagine a minority religion or culture dominating the political scene of an empire. If you can think of just one case where a minority controlled a majority, then you have the basis for imagining the kind of interaction you might have if you allow the AP to be controlled by another state religion when it is so powerful.

Those Buddhists were supported by the strongest religiopolitical force of the day. Why is it surprising they had such an influence?

And what prevents you from trying the same trick on other civs? Let them get all angry about it instead.

[guermantes]

Re: Re: Apostolic Palace Doesn't Make Sense

Originally posted by eris
And what prevents you from trying the same trick on other civs? Let them get all angry about it instead.

Just from my experience of being the AP-resident, I would say that what stops me has been the fact that I always only get to propose votes regarding stopping ongoing wars that I myself have an interest in prolonging. As a result, whenever I am resident, there are never any votes proposed.

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
BTW, is there any penalty if you vote to defy a resolution that would not have passed anyway if you simply voted "no"?

As soon as you press the defy button you will incur the penalty whether the vote would have passed or not.

Originally posted by Unimatrix11
Well, Willem asked an interesting question, and i´d be curious for the answer: When You defy a resolution (AP or UN), how long does the unhappyness last ? Will it be down to 0 next time a resolution comes around in any case ?

The unhappiness penalty lasts until you vote yes or no the next time. If you defy again, you get more penalties but if you simply make your voice heard and accept the majority decision the penalties will disappear.

On a side note, I don't know if it has been discussed already, but would it not be a nice option to be able to expel an unruly minority religion from a city by some sort of mechanism. That would of course cause you diplomatic penalties with the other civs of that religion.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by guermantes

As soon as you press the defy button you will incur the penalty whether the vote would have passed or not.

This reinforces TriMiro's point!

Originally posted by TriMiro
I think there should be an option to vote against an AP resolution and only if it passes should one get the chance to defy the resolution.

Once you defy a resolution there should be no penalty to defy the same resolution again.

RJM

[Tattila the Hun]

Eh, my biggest complain in the game is, that even if I have conquered half the globe (a continent), spread my religion everywhere there, someone can sneak a single missionary, or the religion just spreads on it's own, to some tundracity somewhere, and then they vote themselves to victory... Why do the dealings of religion X concern me? Or atleast give me an option for "Final War" from MOO...

[TriMiro]

The way religious victory works is broken (badly broken). The requirement for RV is that every nation would have at least one city with that religion. Thus, you may be Buddhist and control half the world but have only one Hindu city and yet the Hindu can get RV. This should be changed. IMHO the requirement should be: If religion X is spread to 66% of the world, then the AP resident can propose Religious victory.