Military build up vs. completionisim

[fani]

IMO research rate and expansion is mostly a matter of judgement of each game...rules are actually general guidelines...once or twice i had my research rate down to 0% for a short time, using specialists for research just because i had great opportunities for expansion...it also helps being Darius(love immortals)...or some other fin,org or maybe phi...

[couerdelion]

There are several ways to get ahead and stay ahead in the tech race but running at 100% is rarely going to work unless you get extremely lucky with a shrine or two. More often than not, forcing that rate down by expansion will be better. My current game has me ranked last in gold at the moment but I’m in the industrial era and no-one else has Nationalism, Printing Press, Education or Chemistry.

I also spent long periods at 0% science and still was turning out negative gold. Even with Currency, Codes of Law, Colossus, Great Lighthouse and a Shrine, I was rarely able to support much more than 50% for long.

But the trick was that lots of cities, with scientists (and Pyramids allowing Representation) can churn out a lot of science. Meanwhile, razing cities and selling techs (also an option with Currency) will also support a civ with negative gold. While markets allow merchants who help to pay the bills.

With this approach your main commercial target after Code of Laws is to bee-line banking which can make a big difference to the bottom line. The other option is to build cottages.

So that’s the commercial side of things. On the production side, the trick, as everyone else mentions, is to focus cities on different things. But food and production are you most immediate priorities in the early game. Either your capital or city 2 should be “production” city and I tend to prefer at least two out of my first three cities to be focused on production (ie military units). By about city 5/6 I might be thinking more about commerce cities and building commerce related improvements.

On the wonder side, the important thing is to focus on a particular group of wonders. Often the cheapest way to acquire wonders is to build an army.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Lighteria
Perhaps next game I'll ease up on pushing the tech slider to 100...

It doesn't even pay to have your research at 100%, it makes your Markets etc. useless. Those types of buildings increase gold according to a percentage but if you have your slider set to 100% research, then a Market will be increasing 25% of nothing. The only way they'll serve any function is if you're using some Merchant specialists or have a holy city. Anything else and they're making no contribution to your treasury. You don't really want to put your slider past 90% once you have a few buildings like that.

[Willem]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Buildings almost every city needs:
Granary
Forge

Buildings many cities need:
Library
Marketplace or Grocery (only one usually)
Courthouse
Bank

That's about it for early to mid game buildings. Other buildings are only 'as appropriate', ie Barracks in cities that build mostly mil units, more commerce buildings in commerce cities, theater or monument if you need culture, etc.

I find that later in the game most of my cities will also need either an Aqueduct, Hospital or Recycling Centre as well, because of the health problems with large cities. Which is why I find Grocer a better choice because of the health bonuses it provides. And I consider Courthouses a must have in each city as well. Anything that reduces your maintenance costs will only benefit you, regardless of how much gold that city is making. And having Barracks in every city can be very convenient during a war, so you can get your entire empire pumping out units in a pinch.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by Willem


It doesn't even pay to have your research at 100%, it makes your Markets etc. useless. Those types of buildings increase gold according to a percentage but if you have your slider set to 100% research, then a Market will be increasing 25% of nothing. The only way they'll serve any function is if you're using some Merchant specialists or have a holy city. Anything else and they're making no contribution to your treasury. You don't really want to put your slider past 90% once you have a few buildings like that.

Isn't that basically throwing good money after bad?

If the market served a function earlier in the game when you were running at 60% or whatever, then it was worth it. The fact that it's now giving you a bonus multiplied by Zero = Zero is moot. The market served to get you where you are now.

If your game strategy is to get to 100% research (perhaps you're founding multiple religions and making sure you get the Prophets for the shrines, and spamming missionaries), then this would seem to indicate the need for better foresight and don't build markets and banks in the first place.

...right? Or am I off base here?

Anyway... even if at 100%, you still get the happiness bonus from the markets.

Wodan

[Willem]

Originally posted by wodan11

Isn't that basically throwing good money after bad?

If the market served a function earlier in the game when you were running at 60% or whatever, then it was worth it. The fact that it's now giving you a bonus multiplied by Zero = Zero is moot. The market served to get you where you are now.

If your game strategy is to get to 100% research (perhaps you're founding multiple religions and making sure you get the Prophets for the shrines, and spamming missionaries), then this would seem to indicate the need for better foresight and don't build markets and banks in the first place.

...right? Or am I off base here?

Anyway... even if at 100%, you still get the happiness bonus from the markets.

Wodan

But even if your goal is to maximize your research, you're still going to need some cash for unit upgrades etc. which can get very expensive. So it doesn't make sense to purposely turn off the benefits of having those buildings in place.

[Panag]

Originally posted by wodan11

Isn't that basically throwing good money after bad?

If the market served a function earlier in the game when you were running at 60% or whatever, then it was worth it. The fact that it's now giving you a bonus multiplied by Zero = Zero is moot. The market served to get you where you are now.

If your game strategy is to get to 100% research (perhaps you're founding multiple religions and making sure you get the Prophets for the shrines, and spamming missionaries), then this would seem to indicate the need for better foresight and don't build markets and banks in the first place.

...right? Or am I off base here?

Anyway... even if at 100%, you still get the happiness bonus from the markets.

Wodan

Hi ,

and how will you pay for the upkeep , ....

you may get a bit out of wars and diplo , maybe a few coins from you blockades but no way you will be able to keep your empire without money , ....

and the events that you will have when you have banks in place or markets are just to good to ignore also , ....

Have a nice day

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Willem


But even if your goal is to maximize your research, you're still going to need some cash for unit upgrades etc. which can get very expensive. So it doesn't make sense to purposely turn off the benefits of having those buildings in place.

I can't see any point in keeping a tax rate of 10% (or higher) just because you have built a market. If you have a healthy bank balance (from a merchant's mission perhaps), then running 100% research is perfectly reasonable. My rule of thumb is that with more than 350 gold in my treasury, I'm prepared to run a significant deficit.

RJM

[rah]

I like run to a healthy positive when approaching those military game changing techs for upgrading my well promoted shock troops. Especially for cannons and infantry. The only real time I like running at 100 is in OCC games.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by Willem
But even if your goal is to maximize your research, you're still going to need some cash for unit upgrades etc. which can get very expensive. So it doesn't make sense to purposely turn off the benefits of having those buildings in place.

If you're making enough cash to meet these needs, then yes it does make sense.

If you are playing a strategy that requires lots of cash, then I definitely agree you almost certainly will be running lower on the science slider than you would have to otherwise. In such cases, market bank etc would be useful.

Originally posted by Panag
and how will you pay for the upkeep , ....

Shrines, like I said. Or, any other way of getting direct gold.

you may get a bit out of wars and diplo , maybe a few coins from you blockades but no way you will be able to keep your empire without money , ....

I do it all the time. You must not have experience in those strategies. (Not saying that in a nasty way... just responding to your "there's no way"....) That doesn't mean those strats don't exist and aren't viable. Do you agree?

and the events that you will have when you have banks in place or markets are just to good to ignore also , ....

Perhaps. Haven't really considered that. What events are we talking about and what's the % incidence of them?

Originally posted by rah
I like run to a healthy positive when approaching those military game changing techs for upgrading my well promoted shock troops. Especially for cannons and infantry. The only real time I like running at 100 is in OCC games.

I guess I don't get it.

Isn't it true that what % the slider is running at is an arbitrary number since it is chosen based upon the desired bank balance? I suppose it's possible you always play using game play styles that omit strategies that permit massive non-slider gold income? Not being confrontational... honestly asking.

Wodan

[snoopy369]

It is, as always, a strategic difference... weighing:

1. Value of having gold
2. Amount of gold required to stay afloat
3. Return of percent gain buildings.

and others... The presence of a marketplace is not, by itself, adequate justification to run 10% gold (particularly when you probably have libraries also, right?). However, having marketplaces across your whole empire might give you more incentive to, as opposed to using specialist cities, if the benefit is superior. It just depends on the situation.

What rah is saying, wodan, is that he likes to run a high cashflow when near mil techs because he likes to build old units and upgrade them. That's not an uncommon strategy of course... Most 'normal' strategies pre-corporation don't have enough gold naturally produced to run a significant positive at 100% science (of course, heavy specialist strategies do, but that's the exception). It's a lot easier to switch the slider than to switch a bunch of scientists to merchants, in any event...

[wodan11]

Originally posted by snoopy369
It is, as always, a strategic difference... weighing:

1. Value of having gold
2. Amount of gold required to stay afloat
3. Return of percent gain buildings.

and others... The presence of a marketplace is not, by itself, adequate justification to run 10% gold (particularly when you probably have libraries also, right?).

Agreed. In fact, it's not adequate justification to run 20% gold either.

Bottom line: if you need or want the cash, then you have a choice:
1) change your strategy to one that requires less cash
2) do a strategy that gives you cash outside the slider
3) or drop the slider.

I guess where I disagree is when there appears to be an assumption that #3 is the only alternative.

However, having marketplaces across your whole empire might give you more incentive to, as opposed to using specialist cities, if the benefit is superior. It just depends on the situation.

Agreed. Nevertheless, a modicrum of planning ahead can be performed by a player experienced in alternative strategies, which can allow skipping all those markets/banks (market happiness bonus aside). Otherwise, the player is purely performing "reactive" playing. Which is fine, if that's what the player wants; I won't gainsay it.

What rah is saying, wodan, is that he likes to run a high cashflow when near mil techs because he likes to build old units and upgrade them.

I understood that. Basically you repeated what he said. I guess I'll repeat my answer.

As I said, there are quite a few other ways of playing, other game strategies. For example, many people continue to churn out units using designated miltary/production cities as it's usually more cost effective than cash upgrading.

Most 'normal' strategies pre-corporation don't have enough gold naturally produced to run a significant positive at 100% science (of course, heavy specialist strategies do, but that's the exception).

It's not "the" exception, it's one of the exceptions.

It's a lot easier to switch the slider than to switch a bunch of scientists to merchants, in any event...

In all fairness, this whole counterargument is a pretty good example of a straw man. There are several other strategies, good ones, that don't rely upon the single posited example (running merchants across the empire).

Wodan

[rah]

Yes there are strategies that you can use that will work while letting you keep the slider at 100%. I don't think anyone here is denying that.

They are not consistent with my normal play. I like going out and kicking butt. This requires considerable focus on a large army which must be paid for. And the troops that survive the early stages are highly promoted and very usefull later if upgraded. So even if i can afford to run at 100, i'll drop it down a touch so I have some extra money waiting. Its also nice having what some would consider a larger reserve than necessary for defensive upgrading when a DOW comes unexpectedly.

Some games the situation let's me run at 80 or 90 and have plenty of gold. Other games it's 50 or 60 and some (when the land really sucks and I have no financially helpful characteristics) it's 30-40.

It all depends on the hand you're dealt and how you choose to play it. Which is the only reason this game can still be interesting after as many times as I've played it.

[The Priest]

And of course, this is why religion and shrines can be the way foward. I have had quite a few games where i have been able to run at 100% science all game and have been building up stocks of gold for trade.

Different strategies for different maps, different civs and appeal to different folks of course, but a well spread early religion can be very very powerful.

[rah]

Yeah, the game I'm currently playing has one of those sweet two shrine cities. Even with quite a large empire, i've been running at 80% with a good + surplus of gold. Very powerful, but since i never rush bud or hin this was more of an exception. I usually get my shrines by conquest.