Some tactical, strategic and game mechanic questions

[NFIH]

A few questions, in no particular order ...

1. Is it better to build Moai Statues in your coast city with the highest existing number of hammers, or in your coast city with the most water tiles?

2. Does the Spiral Minaret's commerce bonus apply to a new religion if I switch to it despite building the wonder while under a different religion? For example, I'm Buddhist and I build the Minaret. But then X turns later I switch to Confucianism. Do I then get gold per building for all Confucian buildings? And is it all buildings worldwide or just in my empire?

3. Is it better to settle science specialists or build the academy the first time the academy is available?

4. I whip for two pop and dislike whipping for 4-6 pop as the hit to worked tiles, and therefore production, seems too great; is this a good strategy? (I'll whip for more but only if I'm in a hurry, etc.)

5. How do you see what wonders a city has when you capture the city and have to decide whether to keep or pillage it?

6. The consensus is that cities should specialize and only build the buildings that facilitate that. But what about science/commerce cities in the early game? I often find there are no science buildings (or, vice versa, commerce) remaining to build after the library and monastery (if you have a religion) until several techs later. What should a "science city" build in the meantime? Is it OK to build commerce buildings there as well? Because if the root of gold and science is commerce, then isn't it OK to have the max of all those buildings in any city that has a lot of commerce or gold tiles?

[Supr49er]

Re: Some tactical, strategic and game mechanic questions

Originally posted by NFIH
A few questions, in no particular order ...

1. Is it better to build Moai Statues in your coast city with the highest existing number of hammers, or in your coast city with the most water tiles?

2. Does the Spiral Minaret's commerce bonus apply to a new religion if I switch to it despite building the wonder while under a different religion? For example, I'm Buddhist and I build the Minaret. But then X turns later I switch to Confucianism. Do I then get gold per building for all Confucian buildings? And is it all buildings worldwide or just in my empire?

3. Is it better to settle science specialists or build the academy the first time the academy is available?

4. I whip for two pop and dislike whipping for 4-6 pop as the hit to worked tiles, and therefore production, seems too great; is this a good strategy? (I'll whip for more but only if I'm in a hurry, etc.)

5. How do you see what wonders a city has when you capture the city and have to decide whether to keep or pillage it?

6. The consensus is that cities should specialize and only build the buildings that facilitate that. But what about science/commerce cities in the early game? I often find there are no science buildings (or, vice versa, commerce) remaining to build after the library and monastery (if you have a religion) until several techs later. What should a "science city" build in the meantime? Is it OK to build commerce buildings there as well? Because if the root of gold and science is commerce, then isn't it OK to have the max of all those buildings in any city that has a lot of commerce or gold tiles?

1) I build it in the city that has the most water tiles.

2) Yes, it switches and includes foreign cities. (great Great Wonder).

3) Settle

4) I don't whip.

5) Use a spy, or later if you have an espionage lead, you can click on their city to open it.

6) Build units, workers, workboats, etc.

[snoopy369]

1. Moai Statues generally are used to turn one of your commerce water cities into a mild hammer producer as well. It's not really efficient to use them in a hammer producer because a hammer producer needs to be more productive than 1h/tile. I suppose that is the latter option, though it's a bit more specific than that. It should be built in a city that is going to use solely (or nearly entirely) water tiles.

2. Spiral's bonus applies to whatever your current state religion is. Only the Apostolic Palace is locked in to one religion; other religion-based wonders read 'Your State Religion' and thus change with your religion (and thus are useless in Free Religion). It is just your empire.

3. 95% of the time you should build at least one academy, typically with the first specialist. It should be built in your main commerce city, and generally the one where Oxfords will be built.

4. You should whip for more pop when possible. Consider unhappy population to simply be 30h storage units; whip for all of your unhappy pop, and one or two more (as you'll have one more unhappy pop temporarily). The more hammers you get per angry face the better. Many of my early cities are set to grow very, very fast, so they can recover 3 or 4 pop relatively fast (not in 10 turns of course, but possibly in 20). You actually lose more productive tiles if you don't do it that way, because you spend more time at -1 productive pop (say, at 4 productive pop with -1 whip anger) than at normal productive pop (at 5) when you're whipping every 10 turns, rather than waiting for a bit more and whipping every 20 turns.

5. You don't... you have to know ahead of time (check the Wonders screen). Yes, this is annoying.

6. A science/commerce city should build a granary (and other buildings that facilitate growth), and then units. Any city not building something for its growth or purpose should build units. Even if it's only one axeman every 25 turns, it is still better than nothing Commerce buildings are identical to science buildings in terms of specialization - except for your Oxford's and your Wall Street cities (the former gets your settled scientists, the latter should hopefully be the state religion home if practical), there's no reason a city is better at science or money except when running a specialist economy.
Also, you can focus commerce cities on commerce at the exclusion of hammers when not building useful buildings - ie, if you have 10 cottaged grasslands, 3 bonus food tiles, 3 mined plains hills, and 4 coast tiles, you use the 10 cottaged grasslands normally, switch to the bonus food tiles when you want to grow, switch to the mined hills and a bonus food or two to make buildings. This is the perfect city of course, but you get the idea

[snoopy369]

Re: Re: Some tactical, strategic and game mechanic questions

Originally posted by Supr49er

2) Yes, it switches and includes foreign cities. (great Great Wonder).

If you mean 'conquered cities', you are right. It does not include cities of other empires until and unless you conquer them (ie, it is not like the Great Priest built shrines).

[NFIH]

Originally posted by snoopy369
1. Moai Statues generally are used to turn one of your commerce water cities into a mild hammer producer as well. It's not really efficient to use them in a hammer producer because a hammer producer needs to be more productive than 1h/tile. I suppose that is the latter option, though it's a bit more specific than that. It should be built in a city that is going to use solely (or nearly entirely) water tiles.

So turning an already good hammer city into a powerhouse hammer city is just not a good idea?

4. You should whip for more pop when possible. Consider unhappy population to simply be 30h storage units; whip for all of your unhappy pop, and one or two more (as you'll have one more unhappy pop temporarily). The more hammers you get per angry face the better. Many of my early cities are set to grow very, very fast, so they can recover 3 or 4 pop relatively fast (not in 10 turns of course, but possibly in 20). You actually lose more productive tiles if you don't do it that way, because you spend more time at -1 productive pop (say, at 4 productive pop with -1 whip anger) than at normal productive pop (at 5) when you're whipping every 10 turns, rather than waiting for a bit more and whipping every 20 turns.

OK, but would you consider whipping for five or six pop to be excessive? Is the sweet spot three or four, given how long it takes to grow back and the lost production in the interim?

6. A science/commerce city should build a granary (and other buildings that facilitate growth), and then units. Any city not building something for its growth or purpose should build units. Even if it's only one axeman every 25 turns, it is still better than nothing Commerce buildings are identical to science buildings in terms of specialization - except for your Oxford's and your Wall Street cities (the former gets your settled scientists, the latter should hopefully be the state religion home if practical), there's no reason a city is better at science or money except when running a specialist economy.
Also, you can focus commerce cities on commerce at the exclusion of hammers when not building useful buildings - ie, if you have 10 cottaged grasslands, 3 bonus food tiles, 3 mined plains hills, and 4 coast tiles, you use the 10 cottaged grasslands normally, switch to the bonus food tiles when you want to grow, switch to the mined hills and a bonus food or two to make buildings. This is the perfect city of course, but you get the idea

OK, but I'm not sure this explains to me why I wouldn't build all the commerce and science buildings in a city with lots of commerce. You say build units instead. But why? Just to help increase military (even if it's axeman every 25 turns) on the power graph? (Although that rate is so slow that I don't see that it would make a difference.)

[Willem]

Originally posted by NFIH
6. The consensus is that cities should specialize and only build the buildings that facilitate that. But what about science/commerce cities in the early game? I often find there are no science buildings (or, vice versa, commerce) remaining to build after the library and monastery (if you have a religion) until several techs later. What should a "science city" build in the meantime? Is it OK to build commerce buildings there as well? Because if the root of gold and science is commerce, then isn't it OK to have the max of all those buildings in any city that has a lot of commerce or gold tiles?

It's certainly a good idea to build commerce buildings in your science city and vice versa. Those two types of cities are largely interchangeable with the only real difference being the types of specialists you're using there. But if you run out of everything, there's also the option for your science city to run Research and not build anything, once you discover Alphabet, and your Commerce city to run Wealth, once you get Currency.

[joncnunn]

Re: Some tactical, strategic and game mechanic questions

Neither: Balance is the key. I go for the highest number of water tiles in which Moai can be built in a reasonable timeframe.

Spiral Minaret, University of Sankore, and Sistine's Chapel are tied to your current state relgiion. If you switch from Budhism to Confucism you lose the Budhist bonuses and gain the Confucist bonuses.

You certaintely want to build an Academy before settling a GS. After that it is situational on building more Academy's vs settling GS in the Academy.

BEFORE attacking the last defender go to the Wonders screen. As an alternative you could keep the city and reload if you decide you didn't want to keep it afterall.

Science cities are almost always commerce cities as well. So they build the Market Places etc when there are no more science structures to be built, harbors etc if coastal.

Originally posted by NFIH
A few questions, in no particular order ...

1. Is it better to build Moai Statues in your coast city with the highest existing number of hammers, or in your coast city with the most water tiles?

2. Does the Spiral Minaret's commerce bonus apply to a new religion if I switch to it despite building the wonder while under a different religion? For example, I'm Buddhist and I build the Minaret. But then X turns later I switch to Confucianism. Do I then get gold per building for all Confucian buildings? And is it all buildings worldwide or just in my empire?

3. Is it better to settle science specialists or build the academy the first time the academy is available?

5. How do you see what wonders a city has when you capture the city and have to decide whether to keep or pillage it?

6. The consensus is that cities should specialize and only build the buildings that facilitate that. But what about science/commerce cities in the early game? I often find there are no science buildings (or, vice versa, commerce) remaining to build after the library and monastery (if you have a religion) until several techs later. What should a "science city" build in the meantime? Is it OK to build commerce buildings there as well? Because if the root of gold and science is commerce, then isn't it OK to have the max of all those buildings in any city that has a lot of commerce or gold tiles?

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by NFIH


So turning an already good hammer city into a powerhouse hammer city is just not a good idea?

1 hammer per tile does not a powerhouse hammer city make, is the point A powerhouse hammer city needs to be working two kinds of tiles: food producers and hammer producers. As many as possible should produce at least 4 (H+F) (ie, bonus food, irrigated flood plains, mined hills of all sorts). A 2/1/3 tile is not interesting to a powerhouse hammer city - remember, the commerce is not interesting (it's something you take if it's there but you don't work tiles for commerce where it costs you in hammers) so 2/1/3 is equivalent to a grassland forest tile. Are you going to work grassland forest tiles in a power hammer city? Nope... and even those get lumbermills later in the game and railroads for 2/3/(0/1).

OK, but would you consider whipping for five or six pop to be excessive? Is the sweet spot three or four, given how long it takes to grow back and the lost production in the interim?

I would consider whipping 5 or 6 to be a rare event, certainly. The number isn't really that relevant - you whip what you can build in a reasonable amount of time. If you have a city with a 6 happy cap, and 6 bonus food tiles of 5f each, say (and no other tiles except 2/1/0 forests, say) then you have +20 food at 6 pop. That city will be whipping a lot of pop - something like 6 or 7 pop every ten turns - which means either whipping wonders, which is a possibility particularly if you have the hammer multiplier (this counts to the whipped pop don't forget!), or you do something else.

Obviously in this case you probably have a better solution in using specialists; but certainly you COULD burn 6 people every 10 turns if you wanted to (working 32 food means you can build even more, probably up to 10 whippable pop reasonably). It's just a matter of strategic use - if you have things that cost 3 pop to whip, then aim for that; if you have cities that comfortably build up 2 whippable pop in 10 turns, do that. If you can better use your pop running specialists, then run them.

Again remember that you are only losing 1 pop's production for 10 turns. 30h/10t means 3h/t which is equivalent to working a grassland forest for 10 turns (at 1f=1h); so you're not really losing much, anyway, unless you have 6 bonus tiles with 4+ f/h, and if you do, you're probably losing a total of 10 f/h total. Everything else you lose should be unhappy folks (which you're not losing).

If you're whipping happy folks (either below the happy cap, or post-happy cap limit under HR or whatever) it's just a matter of strategic benefit. Your 1 unhappy person is not relevant in this scenario since you're going below the happy cap, so it's 30h/(regrowth turns) exchanged. A city like above with a ton of food available (say a more reasonable city, with 1 6f corn and 6 flood plains, for 6*4+6 or 32 food at 7 pop plus city center, or +18), you can regrow a citizen every 2 turns or less; so it's 30h/2t or 15h/t. If you can find me a city where you are getting that sort of production, then don't slave... but otherwise I suggest slaving here. Obviously the happiness gets to you eventually no matter what the happy cap, so you have to stagger it carefully (or use it in a more limited fashion for a short time only), but 15h/t from your citizens is pretty darn useful - that's a maceman every 6 turns. Not half bad for a city with no hammers.

OK, but I'm not sure this explains to me why I wouldn't build all the commerce and science buildings in a city with lots of commerce. You say build units instead. But why? Just to help increase military (even if it's axeman every 25 turns) on the power graph? (Although that rate is so slow that I don't see that it would make a difference.)

Umm... I did say to build other commerce buildings. I said that they are usually identical in value in a commerce city Most cities will want both. However, you should generally be able to do that with plenty of other time; with that time, build units. Sure, an axeman every 25 turns would not make a dent; but if your five commerce cities do that, it's an axeman every 5 turns, and that certainly helps; and frankly, what else would you build? (Most times it's more than 1h/t even for a commerce city, but that's irrelevant...) Building buildings that give no benefit is a bad idea, though, so if you are, say, building a Scientist city, building a marketplace and grocery is useless, right? Put those hammers to use as units.

When people in MP are amazed at how many units I come at them with, I point to their cities. See that hammer city with a marketplace and a library? That's 210 hammers, or 4 catapults. See that commerce city with a barracks and a forge? 3 catapults (though usually a forge is useful, but not in a pure commerce city with no hammers). Or, instead of 3 catapults, it's a bunch of extra commerce - while working those mined hills for their hammers to produce those, you could have had a few hundred extra commerce towards a tech, or a few hundred extra GP.

You have to weight the use of a building when you build it. There is no 'rule' ... 120 hammers = +25% to your GPT. What is a hammer worth in GPT? How many GPT is that over time? What is the 'now' value of 120h versus the 'later' value of the GPT? What else could those hammers have built? Civ is a strategy game, and the reason that even Soren's AI is not ultimately very good at it, is that there are no hard and fast rules. Each decision is weighing a hundred factors at once, and you just have to think about as many factors as you can handle.

[Theben]

Re: Some tactical, strategic and game mechanic questions

Is it better to build Moai Statues in your coast city with the highest existing number of hammers, or in your coast city with the most water tiles?

As others have said, it's best to maximize the water tiles but be certain that you can build it in a reasonable amount of time. A city with 16 water tiles and 3 hammers max isn't going to be useful for a long time.

Is it better to settle science specialists or build the academy the first time the academy is available?

Depends on your % of science and total available. Hit F1 and look at the city in question (usually your capital). If you will get 6 or more beakers with the academy, go for it. If less settle the scientist.

How do you see what wonders a city has when you capture the city and have to decide whether to keep or pillage it?

There are 2 more alternatives: you can zoom in on the city (before taking it) and see if you can recognize any wonders from the global PoV, or you can zoom in on the city and then enter worldbuilder and take a look- zooming in this time so you don't see anything else.

The consensus is that cities should specialize and only build the buildings that facilitate that. But what about science/commerce cities in the early game? I often find there are no science buildings (or, vice versa, commerce) remaining to build after the library and monastery (if you have a religion) until several techs later. What should a "science city" build in the meantime? Is it OK to build commerce buildings there as well? Because if the root of gold and science is commerce, then isn't it OK to have the max of all those buildings in any city that has a lot of commerce or gold tiles?

Other reasons for building a "non-specialized" building are health and happy bonuses. While a hammer city may not have much commerce, it can benefit from a grocer or market if you have the special resources needed to boost them.

[snoopy369]

It is very rare that the health/happy bonuses for markets or whatnot are useful in and of themselves compared to the cost. There are cheaper ways to get health and happiness; only when the city will have some commerce (not just 3 or 4 but several cottages/windmills at least) is it worth it to build the marketplace/grocer.

Also, don't settle an academy in your capital just because it's your CURRENT science leader. It will be your commerce leader for the first half or so of the game due to the +8c from the palace and the general bonus of being a relatively large city. Plan ahead, and settle the academy even if it is not 'worth it' yet in the city that WILL be your science leader; only if you are playing in such a manner that you can be assured of another scientist relatively shortly should you forgo the first scientist becoming an academy regardless of the math.

[Hauptman]

Ok I got somethin to say about 'city specialization'.

The idea of not building a market simply because the city is set up for production almost seems retarded to me. Every single city I have will have EVERY building in it by the end of the game (unless I just captured it and didnt have time.) My Idea of city specialization is centered around national wonders, As in wich city gets what. Other than that, every city I build will be a cookie cutter copy of the next. In a nut shell, all my cities are balanced. 33% commerce tiles, 33% hammer tiles, 33% food tiles... give or take. And as many can tell from my most recent AAR, it works.

Now on the one Diety game I played, time didnt seem to exsist to build what I needed, but on emperor, it's not really an issue.

Perhaps however, it might be because 99.9% of my games are on marathon. Are most of you adament city specializers playing on a different speed?

[wodan11]

You can also go into the wonder tab on F8 (or is it F9) and that'll give you a list of who owns what wonders, so you know what to look for.

...oh, joncnun already said that. Anyway, in general I check the wonders screen before I even begin the war. Just general good practice. Plus, if he has a key wonder you might decide to go capture tht city first.

Wodan

[jbp26]

Originally posted by Hauptman
Perhaps however, it might be because 99.9% of my games are on marathon. Are most of you adament city specializers playing on a different speed?

i play on normal/epic, emperor, and i never have most of the buildings in most of my cities. i find most of my cities producing mostly military for so much of the game, everything but my very best cities tend to get just the improvements they need.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Theben
There are 2 more alternatives: you can zoom in on the city (before taking it) and see if you can recognize any wonders from the global PoV, or you can zoom in on the city and then enter worldbuilder and take a look- zooming in this time so you don't see anything else.

You've missed a third, having enough espionage points that you can open up their city screen and have a look for yourself.

[Theben]

Super49er already mentioned it, which is why I didn't.