Vassal trap

[HaplessHorde]

How come when a civ becomes a vassal to an AI master, my war with the former independent is summarily ended, but if a besieged civ asks to become MY vassal, I'm suddenly at war with five other countries? That ain't right.

[snoopy369]

It's how it is Actually, it's because it is more fair for you this way; it originally was you were at war with the AI who accepted the vassal. That didn't work well for the human player, so it was revised.

If a civ you are at war with vassals to another AI, it would put you at war conceivably with an AI you didn't want to be at war with (and cancel deals and such). It's easy to simply declare war on him, after all, so it's not like this is such a significant inconvenience; the only problem is your troops get moved, but that's not a huge deal.

The other way around - it's the price you pay for accepting the civ as a vassal

[martin mcmartin]

hi Hapless,

interesting one. could depend on who is capitulating to whom and how it happens. maybe if you you are at war with the same little one and he capitulates to you, his wars against others are terminated in the same way. if he comes begging to you, maybe you are obliged to take over his "outstanding loans". never happend to me though, nobody is ever coming to me to surrender, why do I always have to use force (sigh)...will they never learn.

any other thoughts anybody?

Mc

[Yaga]

It's a troublesome mechanic any way you cut it because the AI doesn't hit the "do I want to go war with Civ X" logic when accepting a vassal request.

A better mechanic would be, when Civ A petitions Civ B to become its vassal, would be for Civ A to have to offer "Vassal" as wells as "Declare War on Civ X". Civ B will then hit the logic (perhaps with a weighting to favor the positive/negative attitude against Civ X). If it is possible for Civ A to make peace with Civ X, there would be a "Make Peace with Civ X" option to add to the table.

Additionally, it would be wonderful to have resources and/or gold per turn as part of the Vassalage trading. Ie, "As long as you supply me with Iron and Horses, and 3 Gold per turn, you may be my vassal." If Civ A breaks any of these terms, they are no longer a vassal -- that is, they lose all their access to Iron, or horses, etc.)

[martin mcmartin]

Snoopy,

did not read yours yet, see time of publish, thought I was first reaction. sorry for spamming.

Mc.

[HaplessHorde]

In my current game, I was just about the only uninvolved civ on the board. Apparently everyone and his vassal was at war with Saladin, and he came and asked me if I wanted him as a vassal. Not having been paying attention (how come other parties' wars aren't noted on the scoreboard!) I accepted him as a vassal, and found myself at war with everyone.

Luckily, a nearby auto-save got me out of that mess.

Before reloading, I tried to get Saladin to change some parameters, thinking this would make peace more amenable. I thought you could force a vassal to change civics, state religions, etc... Is that only if you conquer him?

[Hauptman]

Thats not how it works guys.

If someone is at war with others, but at peace with you, and asks for your protection ( that is to be your vassal) then you are now at war with all of his enemies, that is the cost of the vassalization.

If you AND others are at war with someone, and you (or anyone else) demands capilutation, everyone (who is not at war with you) gets peace, as the nation is officially beat, so the war ends.

[HaplessHorde]

Well that makes sense herr hauptman. Which leads to another question: just how bad do you have to beat on somebody before they agree to capitulate? Does it depend on number of cities captured/destroyed, units killed, property pillaged? Or is it purely an under-the-hood calculation that leaves you no clear targets to shoot for?

[Willem]

Originally posted by HaplessHorde
but if a besieged civ asks to become MY vassal, I'm suddenly at war with five other countries? That ain't right.

Why not? If a civ is at war and asks for your protection, you know what the situation is. And by accepting them as a vassal, you're accepting their treaties as well.

[Willem]

Originally posted by HaplessHorde
Well that makes sense herr hauptman. Which leads to another question: just how bad do you have to beat on somebody before they agree to capitulate? Does it depend on number of cities captured/destroyed, units killed, property pillaged? Or is it purely an under-the-hood calculation that leaves you no clear targets to shoot for?

It varies alot, depending on the civ. I've had civs capitulate after only two of their cities were taken, and others have all but refused to capitulate. The only thing you can really do is check each time you capture a city to see if they're ready yet.

[StrangelyEnough]

Originally posted by HaplessHorde
Well that makes sense herr hauptman. Which leads to another question: just how bad do you have to beat on somebody before they agree to capitulate? Does it depend on number of cities captured/destroyed, units killed, property pillaged? Or is it purely an under-the-hood calculation that leaves you no clear targets to shoot for?

I think it's a power thing. Much like the AI will not hesitate to attack if your power is a fraction of theirs, the converse also seems true. What percentages? Haven't a clue: I'm currently beating the @$% out of the Koreans, but it hasn't shown up on the graph as a significant reduction/increase. So, no capitulation. Yet...

[Willem]

Originally posted by StrangelyEnough

I think it's a power thing.

I believe it's also programmed into their AI, from what I've read. Some civs are designed to capitulate easier than others apparently. I haven't looked at the code myself though, so I'm only going by hearsay. I was quite surprised actually to have Churchill capitulate to me after only losing two cities. With his "We will never surrender..." speech, I figured he'd hold out until the bitter end. Apparently not.

Incidentally, has anyone caught the signifigance of the line when you first meet a civ, the part about "There will be peace in our time." That was what Prime Minister Chamberlain said after his meeting with Hitler, just before the Germans rolled into Poland.

[snoopy369]

It would be in the XML... I haven't seen such a thing but I don't know for sure.

It's definitely largely a power relation determination, plus 'war losses' (possibly directly war weariness?). There is also, of course, a point after which the AI will no longer capitulate for any reason (if you take too much).

[Ming]

Also... didn't someone else once report that an AI civ won't copitulate if it gives you a victory for the game?

[HaplessHorde]

Unfortunately, there's no way to check on war status at the point somebody's offering to become your vassal. Since wars you're not involved in aren't shown, it's easy to forget who's fighting who. For all that Civ does, it's a shame to be reduced to making transient paper notes!