Noob Seeking Help

[Burningbman]

Hey, I'm new to both Civ and these forums. I recently got Civ IV and tried it out. I was happy to win my first game on the next to last difficulty and decided to try noble since I heard that it evened things out for the AI in terms of tech researching and stuff. I immediately had my butt handed to me on a platter within turns after being destroyed by a near civ. I have tried many other times and find that I can't keep up militarily or technologically but I am usually very good culturally.

So, the point of this post is to try and get some pointers as to how to play at least decently on noble. I have searched these forums for a few days and find the discussions are over my head and the acronyms and abbreviations are many. So I've come up with some general questions that I mainly have:

1. What is a good starting build order?
2. Should I use slavery to help out? How long should I keep it?
3. How do I determine good techs? Should I trade techs? **This is where I really struggle
4. Should I focus on building units or structures? Should I ever use a city to build research/culture/wealth?

Any other tips you have for a noob civ player who has little idea would also be appreciated.

I don't use any expansions btw, just civ 4. I figured I should get a decent footing before I started making it more complicated.

[Robert]

Hi Burningbman! Welcome to Apolyton!

I'll answer your questions on a 'beginner' level. At later stages you may find yourself adopting better strategies.

1. Build a defender (warrior), a worker and a settler. Build a defender in that 2nd city as well. Try to grab either bronze working and bronze, or archery (hunting-archery tech path) asap to build archers or axemen. Archery is a safe path since axemen need copper and you can't be sure if you have copper.

Use your worker to work the special tiles. (mine gold/gems (need tech mining), farm corn, wheat, rice (need agriculture) and build cottages on grassland or floodplains (need the wheel-pottery)

Make sure that your border-cities have >3 defenders at least. Build roads so you can move defenders quickly.
Try to grab land (by building settlers and settling them) that hold special resources (copper, iron, gems, etc. etc.) but stay as close as possible to your capital. Otherwise the costs to maintain your cities will skyrocket. Don't build too many cities. (5 in the very early game at most).

2. Don't use slavery while learning the game. It's better to use it later, when you're more experienced, imho.

3. You should always trade techs if it's a fair deal and it won't help your opponent too much. (ie. no iron working to a neighbour you want to invade soon!)
When you mouse-over a tech you see the costs for inventing that tech. That's the value of a tech.
Techs that bring more advanced units to your enemies shouldn't be traded quicky. (iron working, feudalism, rifling, etc.)

4. Find a ballance between structures and units. Select one or two cities that focus on building units. Select 1 or 2 cities that focus on money income, select 1 or 2 cities for city specialist production. Build libraries in scientific cities, build barracks in military cities.

Later on in the game you can expand this. (ie build barracks in all cities)

I only use 'research' if I want to develop a certain tech asap. (ie. I'm close to liberalism, and want to be the first to get it b/c of the free tech).
One could use 'wealth' in example if you need much money soon. (ie. to upgrade your military).
One could use 'culture' in a city that's in a 'cultural borde war'.

Other tips: use city specialists! (the guys in the right-bottom corner of your city-screen (double-click on a city))
Especially: find one city with good food resources (wheat, corn, fish, clam, foodplains) and make it your 'specialist farm'. Focus on scientists, and settle all great scientists that pop-up in that city in this city.

Good luck!

[Burningbman]

Thank you very much for your in-depth answer, I certainly appreciate it. It appears one of my main problem is the city specialization. I tend to make a cookie cutter type build sequence and just repeat it for all my cities. I'll work on trying to break that habit.
Also, through browsing the forums I have found that the benefits of archery are debatable. Should I consider this and only research archery if I don't have iron/copper nearby, or just work on archery until I have a stronger understanding of the game?
Thanks again.

[Lord Avalon]

Welcome, Burningbman!

Did you check out the topped Information Reference Point thread, which has useful links to many other threads?

At lower levels you can probably skip archery and go for axemen (bronze working, hook up copper) or chariots (animal husbandry, hook up horses). Obviously if you don't have either resource, archery then iron working would be important.

However, if you ever play with Raging Barbarians on, then archery becomes more important.

[snoopy369]

Hmm, I generally agree but have a few points where I would differ

1., certainly build Warrior, Worker, Settler, unless you're on a fishing spot, then build Workboat, Worker, Warrior, Settler. Basically your primary early goals are twofold; one, get as many tiles improved as possible (mined/cottaged/irrigated/etc.), and two, get as many cities out as early as possible while still affording them (reasonable science).
2. Slavery is something you need to learn how to use if you will be a good player. You can forsake it now, as CS suggests, and beat Noble; but you won't really get past Monarch without being incredibly good as a player (beyond most anyone's skill). Slavery is very important in the early game; unless you're spiritual, you get rid of it only when you have something better, which is either Caste System (if you are going for specialists/golden age strat) or Emancipation, generally.
If you are to use it, which I would generally suggest, start slow. Just use slavery when you have a city that is too big and has unhappy people (or, unhealthy people), and use it only to eliminate those people. Rule of thumb in slavery: Always slave one or two more than the # of people who are unhappy, so you end up below the 'happy cap' (# of happy people before an unhappy person comes). Never slave just 1 person, unless it's needed for an emergency. Usually, I slave settlers, workers, and medium size buildings (granaries, libraries, marketplaces, courthouses). Always wait one turn of production in at least (decreases # to slave by 1). Never slave more than once every ten turns (on normal speed), so you don't build up a longer unhappy period (again, unless it's an emergency). Also, put 'chopping forests' in the same category - experienced players will chop forests strategically, when they bring the most benefit, whether that is to build an early settler or fuel an early rush - or to build a major wonder quickly. Slavery and chopping go hand in hand, and should both be learned.


3., I would generally say always trade techs - but you should be doing the offering, not waiting on an offer. As long as you know at least 2 other teams, trade happily away any tech that known by anyone else, or is within 1 of being known by at least 33% of the other people out there. Trading means free beakers, so do it freely and regularly. Only withhold key mil techs if it is unlikely ANYONE will research it soon (but of course withhold from a likely military enemy), and only withhold other techs if you are trying for the wonder.

4. Generally, the higher up you go, the balance is toward units. Most advanced players build relatively few structures. As CS said above, build what is appropriate for the city; a market in a city that produces no gold is useless. Watch the power graph, and make sure you are on top, or close to on top; the power graph is pretty much the main determining factor in the AI going to war with you, so if you are well below another AI, it will happily attack you, even if you're totally friendly.

Specialists are definitely a great idea; if you are running behind in tech, change a few people to science specialists in library cities - that usually makes up the difference quickly. Don't build research/wealth unless you are in a huge crunch, and even then, it's probably not worth it - use specialists, or learn to manage your economy better. Build culture in cities that need a first expansion, it's the cheapest and fastest way to get it Most culture wars won't be (and shouldn't be) won by building culture, as if you have the hammer output to output a significant amount of culture, you're losing out on lots of units.

Try to build more and more cities each game, very early on (pre-macemen). It will be a challenge to afford them, but it's a very good practice to learn how to improve commerce. Start with say 4 early cities, then go up until you hit 8 or so (which will be very hard, even on noble). Don't be afraid of low research %s - figure out other ways (like science specialists) to get research. Aim to be research-leader or tied there by around Infantry; it's okay to be way behind in the middle ages as long as you make it up by then.

Also, try different tactics; some games be very military oriented (trying to take over every rival civ), particularly early on - try to rush your nearest neighbor with axemen, chariots, or even archers (whatever is convenient). Some games be builder-oriented - ie, no military conquest, just defensive military buildup (though you'll certainly still need a lot of it), just focusing on having very talented cities. Some games try to build lots of wonders (most other games you should build very few wonders); see which ones you like the best. Some games try to get as many religions as possible; some try to get no religions and just join one of the AI's religions.

Basically, there are so many ways to play and win this game that it helps a lot to know how to play every way possible; that way when you get into a game, you can see the best way and go for it (this game is a military conquest game, because I have not much space but lots of hammers; this game is a play-nice-with-AI game because I have lots of land but not so many hammers.) It's also fun to play different styles

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Burningbman
Thank you very much for your in-depth answer, I certainly appreciate it. It appears one of my main problem is the city specialization. I tend to make a cookie cutter type build sequence and just repeat it for all my cities. I'll work on trying to break that habit.
Also, through browsing the forums I have found that the benefits of archery are debatable. Should I consider this and only research archery if I don't have iron/copper nearby, or just work on archery until I have a stronger understanding of the game?
Thanks again.

Specialization is key

Archery is complicated. A lot depends on what you are doing. If you are attacking another civ, unless you are Protective and have a UU archer, or are Native Americans, regular archers aren't very useful; but as defensive units, particularly against a civ where you don't know what they will bring at you (horses, axes, etc.), they are very valuable. Further, crossbows and longbows are some of the best units in the game at their time period; the single best UU is probably the Chinese cho-ku-nu for some strategies.

Archery is also a very safe tech; it's able to be obtained early in the game, and guarantees you a unit capable of surving most attack (pound for pound it's better than a swordsman, even). It becomes obsolete at Construction (catapults make them much weaker) but by that point you should have other units in any event.

However, it means you get axes/chariots/etc. slower, and is less 'useful' than bronze working, which gives you both slavery and chopping forests in addition to axes/spears. In general I'd say go BW first, and archery if you don't see any copper only (but before Iron working, and before Animal Husbandry unless you have animal resources, cows/pigs/sheep, to pasture). However, I definitely get archery in general relatively early in the game, because the 25h super-defensive units are very very handy...

[Burningbman]

Thanks so much for your quick responses!

@Lord Avalon: I just found that resource after making this post and I'm looking through vel's strategy guide.

@snoopy: Thank you so much for your massive answer and for addressing the archers, it makes more sense now.

I'm going to try out these strategies in a game now, thank you very much.

[Willem]

One more thing about Archers. They're one of the best units for keeping the barbs under control. Stick them on the Hills around your borders and when the barbs come calling, many of them will attack those units instead of entering your city zones and pillaging your improvements. Even a Barb Swordsman is going to have a tough time against an Archer who's fortified on a forested Hill since the Archer gets a defensive bonus for being on a Hill, plus the bonuses for the forest/hill itself and a fortification bonus. They aren't all that good on flat land but on Hills they're hard to for any Barb to kill.

[Seedle]

Just a few things that spring to mind:

1: Make sure to explore with your starting warrior/scout, and if you build warrior first, that warrior as well. You don't really need city defenders on Noble until turn 100 or so. Unless you have Quechas (the Inca UU(Unique Unit)) don't build many warriors, I usually build the one to explore, and then if I don't have a resource to build a better unit, I'll build one for my capital and one to escort early settlers. But building multiple warriors for one city is a waste. Also, I recommend building warriors over scouts for exploration. They survive better, and if you promote them to woodsman2, they move just as fast in most cases.

As far as archery goes, it's fine while you are learning, but it is better to learn to play without it. Rare are the occasions where you will need it before you can build Longbows/Crossbows. (You need it then though, X-bows especially are good units)

2: Game speed matters. Units are cheaper on Marathon in comparison to buildings than they are on other speeds. So if you play Marathon speed, building units is a much better value than buildings. (Oh hell, you don't have marathon...or did they add that in the last patch for vanilla? oh well, if you have it, great, if not, some other new player with an expansion may read this thread.)

3: Wonders. As has been said, wonders are generally better not built (though they are often good to capture). While the merits and conditions of each wonder is a thread in itself, there are a few that warrant special mention.

The Oracle is good to build, particularly on Vanilla, because you can "slingshot" an advanced tech. Since you are playing vanilla, you can go for Civil Service, though metal working, feudalism, and Code of Laws are decent choices if you can't get Civil Service. The Oracle is also good because you can't get its benefit from capturing it, only the building civ gets a free tech from it.

The Great Lighthouse is good to build on maps where you have lots and lots of coastal cities. Build it early though, the AI builds it very quickly.

The Pyramids are very, very expensive. However, early access to the Representation civic is very valuable to some strategies, and it gives Great Engineer points. If you have Stone, it can be worth building them. It can be worth building them even without stone if you are a Philosophical Leader, because you want to use lots of specialists with a Philo leader, and specialists get a bonus from Representation.

4:Slavery. I agree with Snoopy that learning to effectively whip and chop is very important. (It's even more important in Beyond the Sword, where free health has been reduced and forests are much more important for their health boost). However, I think the most important skill in the game is worker management. I have said before, when I start getting behind in a game, I know I have too few workers. And 90% of the time, when I build more workers and get them improving after falling behind, I catch back up. Having enough workers for your empire is very important, generally 2 per city is a good number. Bear in mind that you want 2 per city, but that doesn't mean each city constantly has 2 workers in it, improve a few tiles in a city, let it grow to use those tiles, while it grow, the workers are somewhere else. But just as important is knowing what improvements to build and when to build them. Farms in cities that are running specialists, farms and mines in cities building units/wonders, cottages in cities meant to fuel your commerce.

5: A re-emphasization of not being afraid to lower your tech rate. As long you can run scientist specialists in your cities, and/or have lots of cottages being worked, you can get by with a low science slider. My slider is generally at 10-30% for the Classical and Medieval eras, and I usually get a tech lead. To do this, it really helps to have the Pyramids, but they aren't absolutely necessary.

6: Thanks Willem, you reminded me about fog busting. Though I find that barbarians will just ignore units on hills, it is still a good idea to have units outside your borders revealing tiles. Barbarians can only spawn where no civilization has sight, so by putting units out in the world and seeing tiles, you keep Barbs from spawning near you.

[Willem]

Another point about trading techs. If another civ approachs you trying to make a deal, don't just go for it thinking it's a fairly good trade. Remove his/her offer then select the "What will you give me for this?" option instead. Quite often as well as trading you the tech they offered in the first place, they will also give you some extra gold on top of it as well. The same goes for maps and resources. Haggle with them a bit and you might end up with a better deal.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Seedle
Though I find that barbarians will just ignore units on hills,

Not always. I find that about 40-50% of the barbs will go for the Archer on the hill rather than head for my cities. That still leaves alot less for my city defenders to deal with. I don't even bother with fog busting usually, I just place them on any Hill that's at the edge of my cultural border. That way they heal quicker and they don't cost as much for support. And they definitely make a difference in reducing the number of Barbs that reach my cities. Archery is always the first tech I go for, unless I start with Mysticism, mainly because of they're so good at barb control that way.

PS: On a sidenote to this, in one of the last games I played I had 5 Barbs descend on one of my Archer positions, 3 Barb Archers and 2 Warriors. My Archer fought off all 3 of the Barb Archers and 1 of the Warriors before finally falling to the final Warrior. That left only a single wounded Warrior for my city defenders to take care. I awarded that Archer the highest honour my civ could bestow post-humously.

[Vampgelus]

Originally posted by Willem I awarded that Archer the highest honour my civ could bestow post-humously.

You cottaged the hill ?

[Chopper]

I agree with Snoopy that learning to effectively whip and chop is very important.

When you guys say "chop", do you mean just a "chop", not a "chop & build" e.g. mine on forested hill where worker does a chop first but I think takes longer due to the mine build as well. This may help me understand how to time wonder builds I read in all the other posts. I am just building a mine on a forested hill knowing that I will get the chop bonus through this process.

[DaveV]

Something it took me a while to learn, but which really helped my game: every city should have at least one food resource (pigs, wheat, fish, etc.). Your early cities should grow fast, and it's a good idea to plan their locations ahead of time so you can place cities to pick all of the nearby resources.

Try to put one of your early cities where it has access to multiple food resources, run lots of specialists there and use it to generate great people (build national epic there after you research Literature).

20-30% of your cities should be military pumps (a site with lots of hammers and no good commerce resources). Build a barracks, then lots of units (later, build a forge, and Heroic Epic in the one with the most hammers). The rest should specialize in commerce, building lots of cottages.

[Diadem]

Originally posted by DaveV
(...) and Heroic Epic in the one with the most hammers (...)

Why do people always insist in building the heroic epic in their city with the most hammers? What a waste! I'd build West point there! Probably combined with Red Cross.

What a waste to use your best hammer city for heroic epic. It should already be producing pretty much anything in one turn (except perhaps on marathon).