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**Seedle** · April 24, 2008, 23:30

Romans: Zara. Cre/Org may sound odd, but it gives Rome what it needs when it needs it to make the most of its Praetorians. Boudica might be better, as well as some others, but I know I'm not the only one who thinks warlords Augustus (who previously had Cre/Org) was awesome.

Native Americans: I think Boudica is the choice here, at least on lower difficulties. Churchill sounds nice, esp. with Stonehenge, and he is. But the dog warrior rush, which Boudica is good for, can make super archers redundant. I.E. you can already have won the game (not literally, but it will be a foregone conclusion) by the time you get longbows or crossbows.

French: There UB is good for cultural victory, so whoever you like for cultural victory. I actually like Louis, but most here seem to prefer financial for a CV.

Vikings: want to be coastal, so I'd take a financial leader. Org gets cheap lighthouses, so Darius sounds good, though Hannibal with Cha for both the boats and the Berzerkers is solid too.

Mali: Ind makes for a cheap UB, and they have a decent UU that's an archer, so Qin Shi or de Gaulle

Japan: Toky actually isn't that bad for them, but Boudica is better. Their UU is a monster, if you can get it enough experince to be CR3 drill4, it's just unstoppable in its time. One time I was playing as Toky (free combat 1) and got the shock axes random event. With the 10 experience from barbs, and the free drill promotion on upgrade, I had about 10 combat 1 drill 1 shock CR3 Samurai (6 total promotions, 10 exp.) the turn I finished Civil Service. I won that game.

Korean: Their UB is a university replacement, so someone Phi. Financial is good too, so whichever English Queen is fin/phi, I forget which one is which.

Ethiopia: Stalin and Louis are solid, but I'd go Boudica. Stack cha and free combat 1 with their free 2 drill promotions on the Oromo, and watch out!

**Vampgelus** · April 25, 2008, 09:01

Romans: Zara. Cre/Org may sound odd, but it gives Rome what it needs when it needs it to make the most of its Praetorians. Boudica might be better, as well as some others, but I know I'm not the only one who thinks warlords Augustus (who previously had Cre/Org) was awesome.

This is true if you only take a few citys from each neighbour civ. If you wipe them out completely, there won't be the issues CRE/ORG prevents. Well... that's my way of doing things.

Native Americans: I think Boudica is the choice here, at least on lower difficulties. Churchill sounds nice, esp. with Stonehenge, and he is. But the dog warrior rush, which Boudica is good for, can make super archers redundant. I.E. you can already have won the game (not literally, but it will be a foregone conclusion) by the time you get longbows or crossbows.

Agreed, Tokugawa sounds good to me at higher difficulties.

French: There UB is good for cultural victory, so whoever you like for cultural victory. I actually like Louis, but most here seem to prefer financial for a CV.

Frensh civ just sucks

Anyway, if you want to max out the cultural benefit from the building, Pericles is a must-have.

Vikings: want to be coastal, so I'd take a financial leader. Org gets cheap lighthouses, so Darius sounds good, though Hannibal with Cha for both the boats and the Berzerkers is solid too.

Taking anything but FIN only means that you will place your coastal citys in a way to get the most land-tiles possible. Vikings are not necessary FIN to me.

Mali: Ind makes for a cheap UB, and they have a decent UU that's an archer, so Qin Shi or de Gaulle

Mali would have been grat with an axeman UU, their building really helps with pumping up a newly conquered empire. With their current UU, i agree.

Japan: Toky actually isn't that bad for them, but Boudica is better. Their UU is a monster, if you can get it enough experince to be CR3 drill4, it's just unstoppable in its time. One time I was playing as Toky (free combat 1) and got the shock axes random event. With the 10 experience from barbs, and the free drill promotion on upgrade, I had about 10 combat 1 drill 1 shock CR3 Samurai (6 total promotions, 10 exp.) the turn I finished Civil Service. I won that game.

I had a game with washington yesterday, i managed to get mechanics with the oracle, i beelined civil services after that... and... yes, they are monsters. With theese promotions (CR3 drill4) they can kill a longbow without getting harmed... it's just insane. But be sure to have pikemen with them !

Korean: Their UB is a university replacement, so someone Phi. Financial is good too, so whichever English Queen is fin/phi, I forget which one is which.

Elizabeth... yes, i tried that too often, but with theese starting techs, she struggles too much on the early game. I don't know if it's bad luck (starting positions) but each time i tried this combo, i actually gave up before i could get the UB. But don't you forget the UU ! This is really a monster too ! So Hannibal or Lincoln (as you like) seem just perfect.

Ethiopia: Stalin and Louis are solid, but I'd go Boudica. Stack cha and free combat 1 with their free 2 drill promotions on the Oromo, and watch out!

Oromo is way better as a musketman, but in the end sucks as well. Go for De Gaulle or Louis and prey to get Stonehenge in time !

**Seedle** · April 25, 2008, 11:21

Originally posted by Vampgelus This is true if you only take a few citys from each neighbour civ. If you wipe them out completely, there won't be the issues CRE/ORG prevents. Well... that's my way of doing things.

Oh, I wipe civs from the map with the Romans. I don't want creative to push borders (that's what razing and capturing cities with the Praets is for) but to make it easier to acquire resources and for the cheap libraries. Cheap libraries=cheap sci specialists, which allow me to tech even though my slider is at 10%.

Frensh civ just sucks

Anyway, if you want to max out the cultural benefit from the building, Pericles is a must-have.

The French are okay, though I don't like their UU. I'll agree Phi is a good trait choice with their UB, so Pericles seems solid. Of course, if I'm going to use Peri, I'll just stay Greek and get the Odeon.

Taking anything but FIN only means that you will place your coastal citys in a way to get the most land-tiles possible. Vikings are not necessary FIN to me.

I like to generally not take up too much land with my coastal cities, that way I can maybe fit an extra city or two inland. But you make a very good point, I proly am over-rating Fin for the Vikes. Of course, Fin is such a strong trait regardless...

I had a game with washington yesterday, i managed to get mechanics with the oracle, i beelined civil services after that... and... yes, they are monsters. With theese promotions (CR3 drill4) they can kill a longbow without getting harmed... it's just insane. But be sure to have pikemen with them !

Agreed.

Elizabeth... yes, i tried that too often, but with theese starting techs, she struggles too much on the early game. I don't know if it's bad luck (starting positions) but each time i tried this combo, i actually gave up before i could get the UB. But don't you forget the UU ! This is really a monster too ! So Hannibal or Lincoln (as you like) seem just perfect.

Yeah, those techs aren't the best for Lizzy, I agree. Hannibal and Lincoln are good, but I'm not enamored with the UU like most. My siege weapons generally attack archery units, not melee, so the bonus doesn't come into play as often as I'd like.

Oromo is way better as a musketman, but in the end sucks as well. Go for De Gaulle or Louis and prey to get Stonehenge in time !

De Gaulle and Louis seem good. But the Oromo doesn't suck. I'd agree it is merely useable as itself, but it's real strength is when you upgrade it. In fact, I'd recommend building lots of Oromos but not using them, or at least making sure they don't get over 10 exp. Then mass upgrade when you get rifling or assembly line, and watch how you win the game.

Oh, and I agree Tokugawa goes well with the Native Americans.

**Vampgelus** · April 25, 2008, 12:15

Corean UU is a defensive weapon. SoDs just melt with theese babys, of course, while attacking, it's just the same as other cat's.

I know that Oromo's are made to be upgraded, but if I want good riflemen, i take the british ones, if i want awsome endgame units, i'll take the americans. Navy Seals are the Samurais of their time, in addition to that, ethiopian UB is just crap to me (like all monuments, even totem-pole) because of it's early obsolescence. Perfect exemple here is Egyptian UB. you won't need to get that much priests, and getting extra-ones will only be necessary at 15-16 pop or so... a perfectly useless UB (even more considering great temples and Ankhor Vat).

Another funny thing i noticed (that has nothing to do) is the parallelism with Sumeria and Babylon. I think they accidentaly inverted the trait's of Gilgamesh and Hammourabi and didn't notice before the release of BtS :P. I tried Gilgamesh of Babylon this week, and had a relaxing game, cruisin' to my cultural victory without war until the last 30 turns. Having an army that was built over 6000 years, the border-defense was a peace of cake. I should try an early dom victory with Hamourabi of Sumeria...

**Seedle** · April 25, 2008, 15:31

Originally posted by Vampgelus
Corean UU is a defensive weapon. SoDs just melt with theese babys, of course, while attacking, it's just the same as other cat's.

Defense? I don't want to sit back on defense. I want to smash face!

I know that Oromo's are made to be upgraded, but if I want good riflemen, i take the british ones, if i want awsome endgame units, i'll take the americans. Navy Seals are the Samurais of their time

Fair enough. Glad to see someone else who knows the power of navy SEALs

in addition to that, ethiopian UB is just crap to me (like all monuments, even totem-pole) because of it's early obsolescence. Perfect exemple here is Egyptian UB. you won't need to get that much priests, and getting extra-ones will only be necessary at 15-16 pop or so... a perfectly useless UB (even more considering great temples and Ankhor Vat).

Agree on Obelisk being worthless. And before BtS, I agreed with you about all monument related stuff just obsolescing too quickly. However, now that the obsolescence has been move backed to Astronomy, they are much better. Totem poles are fine, you'll likely obsolete archery units before the poles, Stele are fine, they last long enough to give you a jump towards cultural victory, or when the early border push. Even more so on a map without multiple continents, where Astronomy doesn't need to be researched until you want physics.

Another funny thing i noticed (that has nothing to do) is the parallelism with Sumeria and Babylon. I think they accidentaly inverted the trait's of Gilgamesh and Hammourabi

Agreed. I always thought it was odd that Gilgamesh, the legendary warrior , wasn't aggressive. Though almost all of Civ4's trait assignments have to be taken with a grain of salt, these two make more sense switched than they do as is.

**Yaga** · April 25, 2008, 15:37

Rome w/ Charlemagne (PRO/IMP) is pretty hardcore if you want to go the slash & burn route -- clear out a nice space and then grow into it gradually. W/ Great Wall to keep the Barbs out and a religion to keep your neighbors happy, despite all the conquering, you can pretty much keep going until you hit the ocean.

**Seedle** · April 25, 2008, 15:39

Originally posted by Yaga
Rome w/ Charlemagne (PRO/IMP) is pretty hardcore if you want to go the slash & burn route -- clear out a nice space and then grow into it gradually. W/ Great Wall to keep the Barbs out and a religion to keep your neighbors happy, despite all the conquering, you can pretty much keep going until you hit the ocean.

Please explain more. I don't understand what Charlemagne lets you do that another leader can't do better with Rome. Agg and Cha are better for the slashing and the burning, Fin and Phi are better for getting religion, Ind is better for getting the Great wall (not a bad build for Rome, the fewer units you build to defend against barbs, the more Praetorians you can build to conquer the world.) Org and Fin are going to help you fill the space you clear more than Imperialistic, because upkeep costs almost always slow down your growth much more than settler build speed. Besides, I don't want to build cities, I want to take them, with their builidings and pop already there. Saves me turns and hammers. And yes, it is a double post. Feel free to care too much, cause I don't care at all, and then we will average out to the appropriate amount of caring. Well, it was a double post until Yaga double posted

**Vampgelus** · April 25, 2008, 17:33

I almost ever play on Terra map type, so that delaying astronomy is something completely alien to me ^^

Taking Rome without either CHA or AGR is nonsense to me. Pretorians may be very strong but they should be helped by trait's to max them out. What you are suggesting seems to be off topic since we talk about maximising leader/civ combo's. But you get a point by adding PRO to the "rome-traits" because what the pretorians conquer needs to be defended after. I would prefer Churchill to Charlemagne, the extra happyness helping for slavery and war-unhappyness btw.

PS : I'm playing a japanese Boudica tonight and... wow O.o

**Yaga** · April 25, 2008, 17:44

Originally posted by Seedle
Please explain more. I don't understand what Charlemagne lets you do that another leader can't do better with Rome.

The Protective portion allows for greater protection of home cities with fewer troops -- I've often found it easier to let the other Civ's offensive troops pass by stack o' doom to break themselves on on city walls. It also bumps up your Power rating, making other Civs less inclined to come in on one's flanks.

The Imperial portion's faster settler production lets me raze the Civ's cities without hesitation; I can place the settlers better for my own needs, and usually in the earlier game there's not much lost in the other Civ's city's infrastructure. It's all very well to clear out large tracts of land, but it helps to be able to settle them more quickly than any other Civs nearby. The Faster Great general production also lets one get the double promotions faster. Which, once you get to Feudalism &/or Theology, can get you twice as many cities pumping out three-four promotion units.

I did toy with Pro/Ind specifically to help with the Wonders, but found it's more economical to chop-rush the Great Wall, etc, and get the cheaper settlers.

Well, it was a double post until Yaga double posted

Sorry about that -- I'd received an error when first posting, and must have just hit Yes when I went just hit the back button to try again.

**Seedle** · April 25, 2008, 18:18

Originally posted by Yaga

The Protective portion allows for greater protection of home cities with fewer troops -- I've often found it easier to let the other Civ's offensive troops pass by stack o' doom to break themselves on on city walls. It also bumps up your Power rating, making other Civs less inclined to come in on one's flanks.

The Imperial portion's faster settler production lets me raze the Civ's cities without hesitation; I can place the settlers better for my own needs, and usually in the earlier game there's not much lost in the other Civ's city's infrastructure. It's all very well to clear out large tracts of land, but it helps to be able to settle them more quickly than any other Civs nearby. The Faster Great general production also lets one get the double promotions faster. Which, once you get to Feudalism &/or Theology, can get you twice as many cities pumping out three-four promotion units.

I did toy with Pro/Ind specifically to help with the Wonders, but found it's more economical to chop-rush the Great Wall, etc, and get the cheaper settlers.

Sorry about that -- I'd received an error when first posting, and must have just hit Yes when I went just hit the back button to try again.

No worries on the double post, it just made the end of my post non-sensical, but I'm not sure that's abnormal.

Anywho, I don't want enemy units crashing on my city walls, for one, because they'll probably pillage first, and two, because I want a Praetorian to kill them and gain experience it can use to kill more units. However, I don't play with aggressive AI, and I play on a lower difficulty, so maybe this works better when facing more units. Still, I generally prefer an aggressive spear and an aggressive axeman to 3 protective archers. If I'm Rome, I don't want my city walls dissuading invasion, I want the threat of a can of Praetorian whoop-ass being opened to dissuade invasion. Or, like I said in an earlier post: Defense? I don't want to sit back on defense. I want to smash face

As for settlers, like I said, I generally find I can build more settlers than I could possibly pay for, my empire isn't small because I can't build new stuff, it's small cause I can't pay for new stuff. And I think charismatic gives essentially the same exp. bonus as extra great generals, while also giving happy. To each their own, I guess.

Yeah, I agree on Industrious, just chop the Great Wall.

**Vampgelus** · April 28, 2008, 22:01

I would say that for the strategy you are talking about, Napoleon or De gaulle seem just right.

Take Napoleon and have lower upkeep, or take De Gaulle and get more wonders the easy way.

When it comes to UU's i think the best way of getting the most out of it still is CHA, since the extra generals would only boost the troops you build from there on, not those which are on the field.

**Diadem** · May 6, 2008, 12:09

Inspired by this thread I tried a game with Boudica of the Romans.

It's incredible. Those praets just can not be stopped. They come out of the gate with Combat I and City Raider I, just one point away from City Raider II. They eat through anything in their way. Archers don't even register. I killed my first three civilizations while loosing only one preat.

Axemen are the only thing that has a chance, but even they die easily. You'll quickly have a stack of City Raider 3 praets and even axes can't do much anything against those.

It's just so easy.

**Seedle** · May 6, 2008, 16:03

Originally posted by Diadem
Inspired by this thread I tried a game with Boudica of the Romans.

It's incredible. Those praets just can not be stopped. They come out of the gate with Combat I and City Raider I, just one point away from City Raider II. They eat through anything in their way. Archers don't even register. I killed my first three civilizations while loosing only one preat.

Axemen are the only thing that has a chance, but even they die easily. You'll quickly have a stack of City Raider 3 praets and even axes can't do much anything against those.

It's just so easy.

I agree.

Yeah, I don't even play as the Romans anymore, Praets are just too strong. I've recently had success as Boudica of the Ottomans. Super Janissaries, thank you. And with Boudica, you don't even need much of a tech lead, her Jans rip longbows and macemen to pieces, and if you go for combat over drill, knights don't pose a problem either. I also recently did a game as Lincoln of the Chinese, on Marathon. Got X-bows in 750 BC, just ripped everyone near me to pieces. It was pretty much lose one X-bow on the first archer, collaterall damage means all the other archers die, and axes and spears don't stand a chance regardless.

**Vampgelus** · May 6, 2008, 17:22

I like samurais over pretorians, because they are usefull for a longer period. As i said, backed by a great amount of siege weapons, they can even get down MGs (considering the huge amount of promotions they got at this point), and they are not limmited to CR + Combat promotions, they can get up the drill path too.

That's why i'm always playing the romans for their UB, with an industrious leader.

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