Where do I go from here (save game inside)?

[NFIH]

Originally posted by Krill


It's only Noble, so city maintence isn't prohibitive. Building wealth helps alot as well, cities that could get a barracks and start building units can be put onto wealth, the gold in the second city helps research so that currency isn't impossible to get (I would have just finished if I hadn't got calendar immediately after researching the early techs). Building cottages and forcing the new cities to grow and work nothing but food tiles and cottages until you can slave a courthouse for 4 pop (after getting a granary first, of course) is the main way.

Man, do I stink, lol! Anyway, I'm still mystified by how you managed to devote some cities (and the production ones, to boot) to building wealth and STILL build an army powerful enough to take and hold the cities you did. Do you build barracks in non-production cities as well to at least get promotions for your troops? But don't those cities build too slowly to be effective? (No, I still haven't opened your save--no time as yet.)

I didn't slave any units at all, no need with all of the cities having alot of production tiles. Simply growing cities towards the happy cap gave me enough production. The coastal cities that built lighthouses just worked food and coastal tiles until they were large enough to work most or all of the production tiles then I moved them onto production and building units.

Would I be right in saying you definitely don't use the city governor for tile management?

Also, how does the turn count work for working cottages? For example, if I start to work a tile and do it for 5 turns, then take the worker off it and put it back a few turns later, does that tile still count as having worked 5 turns toward growth or does it reset to zero?

[NFIH]

Originally posted by Seedle


Speaking of Memphis, I popped 4 great prophets in the last 45 turns. (wish I could average a great person every 11.25 turns the whole game) This gives me an excuse to mention that prophets=profits. Thank you, I'm here all week.

Christ, I don't understand how you're generating the four prophets so fast.

Also, how did you deal with barbs? Fog-bust in such a way so that they didn't trouble your eastern side? I found that even if that wasn't a problem then barbs from the north west were. A few times I tried building the Great Wall so I wouldn't have to worry about it at all, but I'm not sure if it was wroth the time and hammers. It did funnel the barbs against the other civs though and on one occasion, the Mongols got wiped out by barbs just a few turns after I built the GW, lol.

[NFIH]

By the way, folks, the city names you see in the first save I posted refer to their specialty. So:

M = military
GL = gold
GP = great person
U = utility (only occasionally used and for sites that suck but exist to take a key resource)

Can you look at that save again and tell me if you think I've assigned specialties correctly based on the terrain of those cities?

[Krill]

[q=NHIH]Man, do I stink, lol! Anyway, I'm still mystified by how you managed to devote some cities (and the production ones, to boot) to building wealth and STILL build an army powerful enough to take and hold the cities you did. Do you build barracks in non-production cities as well to at least get promotions for your troops? But don't those cities build too slowly to be effective? (No, I still haven't opened your save--no time as yet.)[/q]

It was only my capital that was on wealth for 50 odd turns, most of the time the rest of my cities were just building units, it was only when I needed to get an important tech qiuckly, such as CS that all my cities built wealth.

I built barracks in most cities, IIRC. WC are only 30 hammers, so if a city have make 8 spt, then they built a barracks, although before I attacked the mongols I did build a couple of 0XP WC, just for the numbers. All of my established cities on the capital side of my pensisula were doing 2 turn WC, iirc, and the two "Mongol Container" cities were about the same. I was building around 2 WC a turn until turn 140.


[q=NFIH]Would I be right in saying you definitely don't use the city governor for tile management?

Also, how does the turn count work for working cottages? For example, if I start to work a tile and do it for 5 turns, then take the worker off it and put it back a few turns later, does that tile still count as having worked 5 turns toward growth or does it reset to zero?[/q]

Yeah, I normally MM a city after it grows, and in the early game every turn. When I have a massive empire, I ust normally through on emphasize growth and only MM it every few turns.

The cottages retain all growth if you move the labourers on and off the tile.

[Krill]

Seedle, WC are insane units, they only really stop being useful around when longbows show up, and can kill everything before hand given the numbers. The 2 moves lets you move between cities, as the AI never has enough units to cover its' backside, and C2 WC, which aren't hard to get (attack with C1 WC, die, killwith C1, get promo etc) get odds on most archers in cities so the AI has to defend with spears, which it never does to defend against 15 WC. I would have carried on against Louis with WC and maces but he got longbows just in time, so I decided to sit back and build up. Could have pushed on and got the confucian holy city, I think.

[Seedle]

The Mayans bombed this exact city in my game too. Must be some AI quirk.

Anyway, update on progress:
I just want to say WTF? to the placement of Ulundi here. One tile to the north gains coastal and fish, and loses nothing. I had 5 riflemen holding Ulundi while I mopped up the other Zulu cities and it went into revolt. Shaka retook it with freaking pikemen. Anyway, they're gone now. But Shaka had to have one of the worsts starts I've ever seen. His capital was good, especially if founded on the proper square, but everything around him is dry and foodless:

This pic is as far as I have played.


This is the kinda battles I like to fight:

Infantry vs. longbows. Good stuff. As I said in your other thread NFIH, it's not who gets longbows first, it's who's using them last. Unfortunately, right after I declared on Pacal, all my cities decided that they didn't like how the Zulu war was going, and I had to focus on happy instead of units, and he got blimps and cuirassers. So I didn't get to take advantage of my tech lead like I wanted to. I can still win, but I have to actually try now, I can't just send random infantry at his cities and rape.

A new demographics screen:

A decent commerce lead, a slim production lead, but I've got mining inc. spreading for 10 hammers a city and an engineer saved to make sure I get the three gorges dam, behind in units, but I've got the pentagon, and I'll be first to flight (and if the commerce situation continues, every other military tech from here on out.)

[NFIH]

Seedle and Krill, I'm unable to replicate your victories at the moment. I still don't see how you're both able to do everything as fast as you do, for one thing.

For example, I tried Seedle's chariot rush against the Mongols. Most times my assault sputters before I can actually take the Mongol's last city and that's all he needs to guarantee I can't take him out completely. Because by the time any second wave attack force of mine arrives he's got enough defence to stop it. And meanwhile I've done no expansion since all production was going to combat units.

On another occasion, I did take out the Mongols and settled the land in a line between my capital and the former Mongol capital, but then was attacked by FOUR civs (the French, the Zulus, the Khmer and one other I can't remember). Game over.

I've also tried to expand in the manner Krill did, but again always run into one show-stopper or another; either I don't have the money to expand to fill the land before the AI takes it, or I expand but am so far behind tech-wise that it's just a matter of time before I'm attacked by superior tech forces and die.

I'm trying to build cottages as quickly as possible but the other AIs always manage to outpace me and I really don't see how.

[Seedle]

Originally posted by NFIH
Seedle and Krill, I'm unable to replicate your victories at the moment. I still don't see how you're both able to do everything as fast as you do, for one thing.

Heh, I don't understand how Krill does what he does. I mean, I know some of the stuff I'm doing is sub-optimal, like the wonder whoring, but I just boggled at his skill.

For example, I tried Seedle's chariot rush against the Mongols. Most times my assault sputters before I can actually take the Mongol's last city and that's all he needs to guarantee I can't take him out completely. Because by the time any second wave attack force of mine arrives he's got enough defence to stop it. And meanwhile I've done no expansion since all production was going to combat units.

Couple of hints, which you might already be doing: Make sure you keep your units together, attack with everything at once, and focus on one city at a time. In general, but particularly on this map, since the Mongols have no copper and therefore no spears till Iron working, keep building units until you've won your war. Depending on how the war goes, your extra units can either garrison your new cities, be garrison units for new cities you build settlers for, or join your attack force and start on the next civ. Give the enemy the least warning possible. Don't declare war until you are at his border. If you plan on pillaging resources, have units in position to do this before the declaration, not after. Try to enter enemy territory through the corner of the fat cross, where you are right next to his city, rather than from the edge, where you have to move through their culture for 2 turns. If you can, get on hills and peek at the units guarding the enemy cities, this can give you an idea if you can win or not.
I'm really kinda surprised you're having trouble with the Mongols on this map, they're about as soft a target as Egypt can hope for: no protective, no cities on hills, no super early UU, and no copper.

On another occasion, I did take out the Mongols and settled the land in a line between my capital and the former Mongol capital, but then was attacked by FOUR civs (the French, the Zulus, the Khmer and one other I can't remember). Game over.

Did they attack all at once? Regardless, ouch. My usual defense force for cities is an axe and a spear for the interior, 2 axes and 2 spears for the exterior. It's a little light, and isnt' going to stop a stack of doom, but it seems to hold the less aggressive AIs at bay. What you do is when they declare, you concede the first city. Maybe keep a unit in it to see if they'll waste turns bombarding the defenses, but evacuate to the next city, and move all your other extra units up to the second city. While that second city holds the opposing army, you build your counter force. By the way, in the early game, you can use 2-3 chariots (especially war chariots, and very especially immortals) instead of axes and spears, but once the enemy has horse archers or swordsmen, you need metal units.

I've also tried to expand in the manner Krill did, but again always run into one show-stopper or another; either I don't have the money to expand to fill the land before the AI takes it, or I expand but am so far behind tech-wise that it's just a matter of time before I'm attacked by superior tech forces and die.

Don't worry too much about the AI taking territory. While it is a concern, generally it just amounts to them spending hammers on settlers instead of you, and amounts to them wasting money on lots of upkeep instead of you. You don't want to get to far behind, obviously, but if you make better use of less land, it won't matter that they have more.

I'm trying to build cottages as quickly as possible but the other AIs always manage to outpace me and I really don't see how.

Do you always have a worker improving every city? Cause you shouldn't. While you should have about 2 workers per city, that doesn't mean each city should have 2 workers at all times. Improve tiles up to how big the city is going to get in the near term, then have those workers go to the next city and improve it. If a city grows bigger than you thought and is working unimproved tiles, whip it or use specialists, and bring the workers back to improve some more. Also, don't be afraid of farms. All the talk on here about cottage spamming and about how farms are weak tiles unless you are running a specialist economy made me not build farms except on resources for awhile. This is taking it to far. One or two grassland tiles farmed, especially if the city doesn't have much food otherwise, can really help your city grow big enough to work all the cottages you put on the other squares.

General suggestion: Use custom game at the start menu to play a game without any financial civs, this will slow down the AI's tech rate. On the map in the save we are discussing, you 3 financial civs. Making it worse, from my experience, Mansa and Pacal are the two best techers the AI has, even outperforming their financial brethren, on average.

And one final thing: Shrines are your friends. Best to capture them, but okay to found them. But the money the bring in can drive your economy until your cottages mature.

Oh, and to Krill and anyone else who cares to give an opinion, here is my latest save:
http://apolyton.net/upload/thumb/90347_ABTHREAD.CivBeyondSwordSave
Should I be running Universal suffrage (Karakorum, Elephantine, Teotihaucan, and Heliopolis need the hammers) or representation (I've got settled great people, llots of food with Sid's sushi, some over farmed cities, and the Statue of Liberty)? How about Bureaucracy or Free Speech? Is the extra commerce worth the massive hit in productivity in my capital? Generally Free Speech would be a no brainer, but I don't have as many cottages as I normally do, and my capital has a lot of hammers. I still think Free Speech is the way to go, but I want to make sure. As for Universal Suffrage vs. Representation, once again, it's usually a no brainer with the massive cottage spam I do, but I'm not quite sure on this particular game.

[Krill]

Every autosave, Turn 1 through turn 242.

[Krill]

Around turn 190 I went into theocracy and started a golden age with a merchant, started building maces pikes cats and trebs, having already made about 8 galleys. Attacked the Mayan culture bomb which had a grand total of 3 units in it and at the same time launched a ground invasion from the Mayan north west and south west. Had to stop the sea born invasion after it took three cities, as Pacal got caravels and I couldn't get to astronomy due to the SoZ killing my economy, but I had already stockpiled enough unit to kill Pacal so I just kept on going and crushed his empire with stacks of maces/cats and a small (around 8) stack of knights.

Louis declared war on me two turns before I killed Pacal, but as all my cities were building knights I was perfectly safe. Louis invaded with a stack of about 15 units, mostly cats with 3 C2 knights and a few ground troops; I won the first 2 50/50 chances with knights and then every battle after that had greater than 67% odds. Won every battle and flanked every cat without losing a knight. Bit lucky there I suppose, but when my stack is twice the size of his I ain't going to lose. Proceeded to make a total of 53 knights and used just them to take every French city (he even had musketeers, but only about 4 during the course of the whole war. Stupid, 5 CD2 Musketeers in Paris would have made me move up sow movers).

Researched to cuirassiars, made Taj, and as I captured the buddhist shrine I used the preist I was saving and an Artists for my second and third consecutive golden ages, to finish out the game. Can't really compare stats anymore as the GA does screw it about, but I'd be suprised if I wasn't on par with Seedle; as of the end of the game, I had 6 holy cities (all captured!), and only had to make 1 shrine (well, and would have to make another shrine for Toaism).

[Seedle]

Originally posted by Krill
Can't really compare stats anymore as the GA does screw it about, but I'd be suprised if I wasn't on par with Seedle;

I'm quite sure you were quite far ahead... For instance, based on your autosaves ending at 242, I'd say you won on that turn. I'm on turn 303, and not only have I not won, Mansa still has a reasonable shot at beating me.
What victory did you get? Or did you just decide you'd won and quit?

[NFIH]

Originally posted by Seedle

Couple of hints, which you might already be doing: Make sure you keep your units together, attack with everything at once, and focus on one city at a time. In general, but particularly on this map, since the Mongols have no copper and therefore no spears till Iron working, keep building units until you've won your war.

On my first attempt or two I tried building five chariots and rushing, then eight and rushing and finally 10 and rushing. The issue is the longer you delay sending out the chariots the large the Mongol force is--or he's even put down another city closer to me which I first have to go through before I can get to Karkorum. Also, he does have iron by the time I get to his capital--if I've built 10 chariots. He's got it just east of his capital. Anyway, point is, the timing of the assault is crucial to victory.

Depending on how the war goes, your extra units can either garrison your new cities, be garrison units for new cities you build settlers for, or join your attack force and start on the next civ. Give the enemy the least warning possible. Don't declare war until you are at his border. If you plan on pillaging resources, have units in position to do this before the declaration, not after. Try to enter enemy territory through the corner of the fat cross, where you are right next to his city, rather than from the edge, where you have to move through their culture for 2 turns. If you can, get on hills and peek at the units guarding the enemy cities, this can give you an idea if you can win or not.

Yeah, these things I already do.

Did they attack all at once? Regardless, ouch.

Yep, all declared on me at once. They were all Hindu along with the Mongols, which no doubt had a lot to do with it. Funny thing is I was prepared for at least one other civ to do a sneak attack and had cats ready to collateral it into submission. But three civs at once? No dice.

My usual defense force for cities is an axe and a spear for the interior, 2 axes and 2 spears for the exterior. It's a little light, and isnt' going to stop a stack of doom, but it seems to hold the less aggressive AIs at bay. What you do is when they declare, you concede the first city. Maybe keep a unit in it to see if they'll waste turns bombarding the defenses, but evacuate to the next city, and move all your other extra units up to the second city. While that second city holds the opposing army, you build your counter force.

I never really thought about conceding a city. I hate to do it, but I suppose it's something I'll have to get used to.

Don't worry too much about the AI taking territory. While it is a concern, generally it just amounts to them spending hammers on settlers instead of you, and amounts to them wasting money on lots of upkeep instead of you. You don't want to get to far behind, obviously, but if you make better use of less land, it won't matter that they have more.

My ultimate concern with letting the AI do this is that it effectively forces me to declare war on them when I don't want. Often they're simply too strong or I know allies of theirs will join in making any war I fight a 2v1 against me. But it looks like Krill was able to expand westward without this being an issue. Ah well.

Do you always have a worker improving every city? Cause you shouldn't. While you should have about 2 workers per city, that doesn't mean each city should have 2 workers at all times. Improve tiles up to how big the city is going to get in the near term, then have those workers go to the next city and improve it.

Yes, this I have been doing though I should be more disciplined/scientific about how I do it.

General suggestion: Use custom game at the start menu to play a game without any financial civs, this will slow down the AI's tech rate. On the map in the save we are discussing, you 3 financial civs. Making it worse, from my experience, Mansa and Pacal are the two best techers the AI has, even outperforming their financial brethren, on average.

A-ha, I didn't realize I had two of the best tech opponents! Perhaps I shouldn't be so hard on myself, lol!

And one final thing: Shrines are your friends. Best to capture them, but okay to found them. But the money the bring in can drive your economy until your cottages mature.

I'm terrible at the religion thing. Even in games where I've founded several religions if I try and build missionaries instead of combat units I just get attacked and steamrolled by someone. I think maybe this approach works better on certain map types where the other AIs can't as easily get at you.

[Seedle]

Originally posted by NFIH
On my first attempt or two I tried building five chariots and rushing, then eight and rushing and finally 10 and rushing. The issue is the longer you delay sending out the chariots the large the Mongol force is--or he's even put down another city closer to me which I first have to go through before I can get to Karkorum. Also, he does have iron by the time I get to his capital--if I've built 10 chariots. He's got it just east of his capital. Anyway, point is, the timing of the assault is crucial to victory.

Your RNG must hate you or something, if you get to Mongolia by turn 60 or so, they should be screwed on this start. But timing is critical, and sometimes even then you get screwed. For instance, I have a game (I have lots of games, I get bored and start a new one, swearing I'll go back and finish the other one. Never happens ) where I was the Mongols and bee lined horseback riding for Keshiks. Had all four of my cities start building them. Prepared for war on the nearest AI, Elizabeth, who was also last in score, she had only 2 cities. Once I had 6 Keshik in my staging city, and 3 more on the way, I declared, because I could see that York had only an axeman and an archer defending. Took York, sent my now 7 strong Keshik force toward London, thinking the defenses would be similarly weak. She had 4 archers and 2 Spearmen in London. Even though I pillaged all her improvements and even stationed units on her resources so she was forced to work grassland forest as her best tile, and even though I had 4 cities all making Keshiks, she could make archers faster than I could make enough Keshiks to overwhelm her. This sort of thing is why I was surprised Krill got so far with War Chariots; I find I need 3:1 unit ratio to win cities without siege. I guess the war chariot being half the hammer cost as keshik helps you get that ratio. Anyway, as far as my Lizzy war goes, the Zulu had already boxed her in to the west, she was non-coastal but had ocean to her north, and I boxed her on the east and south. I decided she had one city, and was not a threat. So I gave up on her and sent my 20 Keshiks to conquer Ethiopia and Russia instead. They turned out to be much softer targets.

I never really thought about conceding a city. I hate to do it, but I suppose it's something I'll have to get used to.

Yeah, the goal is to buy turns. Move all the units you can to the second city, leaving only one unit in as many cities as you safely can. (not taking units from other potentially hostile borders for instance) If you do this, one of two things will happen. Your opponent will send his stack against your now well defended second city, or will spend turns moving toward a less well defended city further away. Either way you gain turns to build a counter force. Just make sure you defend cities that have good production, they'll be making your units. It isn't an optimal strategy obviously, it would be better to just have a strong military to begin with, but I'm bad at that Also, conceding is just one option, sometimes it is necessary, sometimes it is just giving away a city.

My ultimate concern with letting the AI do this is that it effectively forces me to declare war on them when I don't want. Often they're simply too strong or I know allies of theirs will join in making any war I fight a 2v1 against me. But it looks like Krill was able to expand westward without this being an issue. Ah well.

As far as getting tag teamed goes, about all you can do is have a large army and good diplomacy, and good diplomacy doesn't always work. But don't be afraid to give techs to AIs that ask for help, particularly if it is an outdated tech. For instance, the AI correctly loves the theology tech. But most of it's value is founding Christianity and building the wonders (if you're into that sort of thing.) So if Xianity as already been founded, and you have/don't want the wonders, giving theology when it is asked for isn't that big a deal to you, but the AI will love you for it. Of course, it does have some value, it gives them the theocracy civic, so if you think they may stab your back, giving it would be a bad idea. And there are other techs this applies to (if they ask for monotheism and you're already in the late classical era, or divine right for instance) If they ask for tribute, unless I know I'm particulary weak and will get steamrolled, I tell them where to stick it and start building units, cause I know they are coming.
The point is, while the diplomacy system is a little skewed against the player, giving gifts and trading for good relations can help keep other AIs from joining in against you, and can help you secure allies to fight on your side.

Yes, this I have been doing though I should be more disciplined/scientific about how I do it.

I think good tile improvement and usage is the most important skill in the game. Whenever I get behind in a game, I usually find I can get back the lead by building workers and using them. Seriously, whenever I have lots of workers, I do well, my worker/city ratio drops, I do poorly.

A-ha, I didn't realize I had two of the best tech opponents! Perhaps I shouldn't be so hard on myself, lol!

Well, the two best in my opinion. But yeah, financial AIs out tech other AIs generally, and you had 3 of them.

I'm terrible at the religion thing. Even in games where I've founded several religions if I try and build missionaries instead of combat units I just get attacked and steamrolled by someone. I think maybe this approach works better on certain map types where the other AIs can't as easily get at you.

Well, there is a couple of things here. It is better to take religions than to found them generally, let the AI do the work of spreading them, and then you reap the rewards. I wouldn't try to spread multiple religions on normal speed, especially until you have the other aspects of the game well in hand. However, between the happy boost and the benefits of the religious civics, you do want to spread whatever state religion you choose to all of your cities. Generally, I have one city desginated as a missionary maker, all the others build units or infrastructure, and even the missionary city will build units in times of war. As far choosing your state religion, it's generally better to go with what the AIs you want to be friends with are using, even if you have founded a different one.

[Lord Avalon]

Horse Archers/Keshiks have a city attack penalty, IIRC, while (War) Chariots do not. I don't think they had it from the get go, but I don't remember when it was added.

[Seedle]

Okay, final update. After finishing off the Zulu, Louis builds Broadway, so my Zulu army moves to attack him while a second army takes on the Maya. My tech lead on the French and Maya allows me win with minimal casualties, even while spreading Sid's Sushi and Mining Inc. to all my cities. By spreading both of these corps to newly conquered cities, they could, even at size 3 and 4, build theaters in 1-2 turns, factories in 5-7, or even fewer. Good stuff. I managed to take about 3/4 of Pacal's land while Mansa go the other 1/4. Unfortunately, Mansa got the Buddhist Shrine . After defeating the Maya, I was about half done with the French, and I had a choice. Go for domination by killing S-man and Willem, go for domination by killing Mansa, or go for the space race. Mansa had tech parity and nearly an equal size force. I could beat him, but it would be more trouble than it was worth. Willem and S-man were behind in tech and had smaller militaries, but quite frankly, I was just tired of war and couldn't be arsed. So I went spaceship.
As I was mopping up the French, I had a few cities build reinforcements while most others built research, with 2 building missionaries (I had 2 late prophets that I used to make shrines, since they don't bulb and I needed more variety for a third GP golden age.) and cities making corp. execs as needed.
About the same time I finished off the French, Mansa, who up to this point was dead even with me, stopped teching. I peeked in one of his newly conquered Maya cities, where I had enough EP for info screen, and he had gone to 100% culture. He was going for a cultural victory. Unfortunately for him, I had 4 cities that could go Legendary before his 2nd and 3rd highest culture cities. The one thing his culture rate did do is make his cities really push borders. Fortunately, I was running 20% culture for happy, and had Sid's Sushi making 27 culture every turn in all my cities, so I actually won most of the border pushes.
Since I didn't need more units, and already built all the buildings I needed, and often the ones I didn't, I was building research in most cities, with a 2 on missionary/exec duty, and some that would build spaceship parts when necessary. In 2 of my culture cities, I built culture, just to have 2 victories in the pipeline should his culture grow faster than my spaceship. Thebes didn't need the help, and Memphis had Wall Street and the third highest production of all my cities, so it ran merchants and built spaceship parts.
About 10 turns before I finished my spaceship, Mansa realized he couldn't culture out before I won. So he started teching again. He also tried to trade me for uranium and fission. Gee, I wonder what he would of done with that?
Anyway, I won a culture victory 7 turns before my ship would have landed, and 17 turns before Memphis would have gone Legendary too, despite the fact I really never put any effort into culture in Memphis.
The victory:

Score 6144, Normalized 20,265
The final demographics:

Look at the final food, prod, and commerce!
And a source of a lot of that commerce:

Look at those taxes. Geez, I hate the governors love of spies, I can't be hassled to check every city every time it grows, and even if I do the yellow square thing, my cities make more specialists than the types I want can take, so I end up with spies regardless.
The last auto save, you can check out my empire and, if you press end turn twice, see the replay:
http://apolyton.net/upload/thumb/90347_justbefore.CivBeyondSwordSave