Spiritual / Organised expansion synergy

[frenzyfol]

As of late I've been playing with ways of modifying my usual style of play which is to expand to the point of near economic collapse, described here.....

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=171493

I've found that theres an interesting alternative path out of near economic collapse using the spiritual/organised trait combination (Asoka)

Instead of using alphabet (build research) and currency (market places + free trade route) to escape collapse. I can get to code of laws via priest hood and slam down statewide 1/2 price courthouses using only 2 pop in a slave.

The extra synergy comes from being forced early down the religious path which gives me a religion and access to organised religion. So essentially I'm building all these courthouses for 50% + 25% cheaper than they would usually be.

Add to that the ability to build the Forbidden Palace almost instantly, and you can go from 0% research up to ~ 40% in a few turns. This then allows you to carry on with the expansion even more.


Thoughts?

[Vampgelus]

How about forcing the citys to work plain cottages instead of slaving ? The transition would be a little longer, but the hamlets and villages would be of great use, especially that early in the game...
But seems to be a working strategy, should work even better with darios.

[frenzyfol]

The main point of the strategy is to expand, and to some extent expand with a pointy stick.
Cottages reduce your production/food capacity and thus the rate at which you can expand.

Though I am experimenting with Darius at the moment, using 1-2 of my cities as purely economic and the rest food/production..

Heres a question, assuming there was LOTS of room to expand which leader do you think you could expand fastest with, whilst maintaining a decent tech parity.

[Theben]

Zarob(?) whatever of the Ethiopians, running the Holy Roman Empire. He's Organized + the HRE -75% 1/2 price courthouses. Creative fills in the gaps very quickly.

"Maintenance? What's that?"

[Vampgelus]

True, i had a game where i started next to an archipel with the land-mass blocked by Izzy so that i had to go for the archipel directly, and i made it without collapse (18 cities oversea about 200 AD). I managed to get the great lighthouse, what helped much.

[couerdelion]

Re: Spiritual / Organised expansion synergy

Originally posted by frenzyfol
So essentially I'm building all these courthouses for 50% + 25% cheaper than they would usually be.

Organised with Org Rel get +125% production bonus when building courthouses which is not the same as saying it is 50% + 25% (75%?!!!!) cheaper.

The 25% Org Rel bonus is swamped by the +100% trait bonus and only reduces the cost from 50% to 44%.

[Arrian]

I love the ORG trait.

If your goal is to expand like a bad fungus, check out Darius of Persia. ORG/FIN means you should never feel the pain. In addition, should you have early access to horses, you may be able to do nasty things to a neighbor with Immortals.

EXP/ORG... Mehmed, right? EXP gives you a small jumpstart with getting some workers out the door and obviously gives you the +2 health. Plus the Ottomans get a solid mid-game UB & UU. The UB gives you +2 happy... meaning your cities can get BIG in the midgame. Granted, that's vertical expansion rather than horizontal expansion, so it's not synergistic. Solid civ though. If you are willing to beeline a bit for gunpowder, you can go on a bit of a rampage with the UU.

-Arrian

[Theben]

Originally posted by Arrian
If your goal is to expand like a bad fungus, check out Darius of Persia. ORG/FIN means you should never feel the pain.

The vanilla Washington. He used to be my favorite. I still played him even after he was changed to EXP/CHA (which I don't get; I can see the CHA, but shouldn't he still be FIN or ORG?).

[wodan11]

Historically, Fin or Org makes about as much sense as Exp, which is to say, not much at all. He wasn't a banker and he wasn't terribly organized, that I recall. Nor did he go on a expansionist binge, not like some of the Presidents who followed and really encouraged westward expansion. I suppose his service in government could qualify as Org, but that's probably true of ANY leader.

Wodan

[Theben]

I seem to recall him being somewhat organized, but then he would have to have been.
Maybe the EXP refers to the growth of the nation after his tenure, and as a 'founding father' he gets stuck with it.

[wodan11]

Maybe (on the Exp). He's attributed to have been organized on a personal level, to the extent of planning his day and that sort of thing. I'm not sure that has anything to do with ORG though... actually I'm fairly sure it has squat to do with it.

Anyway, bottom line, it's probably game balance that determined it. We can't pretend traits are picked entirely from the history book... they have to be balanced vs the UB and UU, etc.

Wodan

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Arrian
The UB gives you +2 happy... meaning your cities can get BIG in the midgame. Granted, that's vertical expansion rather than horizontal expansion, so it's not synergistic.
-Arrian

That’s sounds like synergy to me. Two traits that work well with both vertical and horizontal expansion. Cheap granaries/work from EXP make for fast growth of new cities to provide a much higher commerce base. ORG makes this all cheaper so lots of that commerce falls into the tech pool. Vertical and horizontal expansion are not mutually exclusive.

[Arrian]

Wait, EXP doesn't get cheap granaries, does it?

The vanilla Washington. He used to be my favorite. I still played him even after he was changed to EXP/CHA (which I don't get; I can see the CHA, but shouldn't he still be FIN or ORG?).

I'm glad they moved such a tasty trait combo to a civ that has a useful UB and UU.

-Arrian

[Supr49er]

Originally posted by Arrian
Wait, EXP doesn't get cheap granaries, does it? ... -Arrian

Yes. Double production speed for Granaries and Harbors.

[Arrian]

Bah. I'd forgotten. Thanks.

-Arrian