My problem with Isabella

[Ari]

I've seen the opposite type feedback with Tokugawa. It's easy to go an entire game with him and never get into the positives with him. Otoh, if you're lucky enough to export a religion to him (or more typically, export it to an AI who can then magically export it to him, seeing as AI's always love each other), suddenly you'll have a positive that leads to open borders, MORE positives, trade, etc. Yet none of that's possible without the initial reglion positive, since he'll hate-you-forever if given half the chance.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by NFIH


Want to know what's ironic about this particular match? She asked for nothing. She simply attacked. Doesn't know me from Adam, doesn't share a border, but we have different religions--and note: the other AIs didn't share her religion either--so she just up and attacks. I correctly predicted it, but still. Damn.

Well, probably what happened then is that the other AIs "gave in" to her, while you had a zero... so, they had a net +1 or whatever, while you were stuck with the default negative for having a different religion. Thus, you were her "worst enemy".

Wodan

[wodan11]

Originally posted by NFIH
Pangea simply isn't conducive to playing anything but domination (or something similarly military focused) unless you get lucky city placement, etc.

I'm not sure I agree with that. As long as you're prepared for the (inevitable) conflicts and/or forestall such conflicts with religion or diplomacy, then you can play for any victory you like.

Wodan

[NFIH]

Originally posted by wodan11

I'm not sure I agree with that. As long as you're prepared for the (inevitable) conflicts and/or forestall such conflicts with religion or diplomacy, then you can play for any victory you like.

Wodan

I thought you might say that.

But so far my experience has been that when there is very little area into which I can expand (standard-sized pangea map), I naturally end up at around four cities initially. I'm obliged to assume at least one rival civ will be going the war route and so I have to build a sizable military--but I've only got four cities and they're not necessarily any good for military production. So I do what I can, but fall behind in research or wonders. If the AI didn't appear to so frequently key in on me to the exclusion of others, I wouldn't necessarily have to do this, but so far this has been my experience.

I can try building and exporting religion, but every 5-8 turns that I'm building a missionary is one less military unit not being added to my power graph. And then the AI inevitably attacks. ... And if I haven't had one or even two cities building units flat out, the AI seemingly magically appears with an early stack of doom (but somehow with a relatively bustling economy and research at the same time). (This is all early game I'm talking about here, BTW.)

[Garth Vader]

What difficulty level are you playing?

[wodan11]

Originally posted by NFIH
But so far my experience has been that when there is very little area into which I can expand (standard-sized pangea map), I naturally end up at around four cities initially.

So... either play on a different mapscript, or play on larger map size, or custom game with fewer AIs, or build settlers faster, or send your first settlers out further to grab bottlenecks and deny open borders to throttle AI expansion and then backfill....

I'm obliged to assume at least one rival civ will be going the war route and so I have to build a sizable military

Or adopt his religion so he attacks somebody else, or placate him through diplomacy, or do other things that inflate the power graph besides build military, or do things that ensure the AIs likely to attack you have at least one war with somebody else first (so that they siphon off and kill off units and thus aren't able to build up into a horrendous stack of doom), or build enough forces for defense but no so many that you limit your options.

but I've only got four cities and they're not necessarily any good for military production. So I do what I can, but fall behind in research or wonders.

Aha! Give up on wonders. Why in the world do you think keeping up with the "wonder race" is necessary to having a successful game? If you devote 1 city to building wonders, that's 25% of your capacity, right there.

If the AI didn't appear to so frequently key in on me to the exclusion of others, I wouldn't necessarily have to do this, but so far this has been my experience.

Let me ask a question. Do you vary your game strategy? Or do you pretty much always do pretty much the same things every game?

That was rhetorical.

I can try building and exporting religion, but every 5-8 turns that I'm building a missionary is one less military unit not being added to my power graph.

If you're not at war and do things that allow you to avoid war, then every unit you build is one more unit that was wasted production.

And then the AI inevitably attacks. ... And if I haven't had one or even two cities building units flat out, the AI seemingly magically appears with an early stack of doom (but somehow with a relatively bustling economy and research at the same time). (This is all early game I'm talking about here, BTW.)

Well see above for some suggestions. We can talk about any of them in detail if you want. Others might have suggestions too.

Wodan

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by NFIH


I thought you might say that.

But so far my experience has been that when there is very little area into which I can expand (standard-sized pangea map), I naturally end up at around four cities initially. I'm obliged to assume at least one rival civ will be going the war route and so I have to build a sizable military--but I've only got four cities and they're not necessarily any good for military production. So I do what I can, but fall behind in research or wonders. If the AI didn't appear to so frequently key in on me to the exclusion of others, I wouldn't necessarily have to do this, but so far this has been my experience.

I can try building and exporting religion, but every 5-8 turns that I'm building a missionary is one less military unit not being added to my power graph. And then the AI inevitably attacks. ... And if I haven't had one or even two cities building units flat out, the AI seemingly magically appears with an early stack of doom (but somehow with a relatively bustling economy and research at the same time). (This is all early game I'm talking about here, BTW.)

If the AI is keying in on you to exclusion of others, either you're playing in a particular style that causes this (not building enough power, not playing diplomacy properly, etc.) or you are paranoid. The AI most definitely goes after other AIs as well. You probably are too aggressive with getting your own religion - play a game where you don't EVER found a religion (intentionally, anyway); it's not a big deal, and it allows you to set up diplomacy much better if you can choose which AI's religion you go with.

You probably need to expand more early on - if you are running 70% science in the medieval era, that's a sign you are WAY too small. I typically run 20% science in that time period, but have 8-10 cities. If you don't have at least 25% of your cities building units flat out, you aren't ever going to get anywhere in this game at prince+... you should have several cities that do nothing but build units.

My guess is you probably build too many buildings (for optimal strategy anyway, always feel free to roleplay or whatever however you want, my strat suggestions, as with most, are for 'playing to win and win only'). Once a city has its core buildings (granary/food buildings, forge, sometimes culture building, other hammer buildings if it's a mil unit city, commerce buildings if it's a commerce city, courthouse if it is an expensive city) most cities should build nothing but units - what's the point of spending 200 hammers on a university that will give you a measly 2 beakers/turn, you won't have a positive result (compared to building research) for 100 turns and the stuff you could've built in that time (the macemen or whatnot) will have benefited you much by then.

[DaShi]

I love having Isabella in the game, especially if she's not too close to me. Once I get free religion, I cozy up to her and have a great ally. I've played quite a few games where we've carved up the world together.

[NFIH]

Originally posted by snoopy369


If the AI is keying in on you to exclusion of others, either you're playing in a particular style that causes this (not building enough power, not playing diplomacy properly, etc.) or you are paranoid. The AI most definitely goes after other AIs as well. You probably are too aggressive with getting your own religion - play a game where you don't EVER found a religion (intentionally, anyway); it's not a big deal, and it allows you to set up diplomacy much better if you can choose which AI's religion you go with.

What if I'm going for a culture win? Doesn't that make founding religions pretty much a requirement?

You probably need to expand more early on - if you are running 70% science in the medieval era, that's a sign you are WAY too small. I typically run 20% science in that time period, but have 8-10 cities. If you don't have at least 25% of your cities building units flat out, you aren't ever going to get anywhere in this game at prince+... you should have several cities that do nothing but build units.

Yep, I already do this. Although I find you simply can't run more than 4-6 cities prior to this era without your research going down to 10% or 20% anyway and that can be problematic for me unless I'm planning on taking rival cities --but then I'm sort of locking myself into a military path, which I didn't necessarily want to do.

My guess is you probably build too many buildings (for optimal strategy anyway, always feel free to roleplay or whatever however you want, my strat suggestions, as with most, are for 'playing to win and win only'). Once a city has its core buildings (granary/food buildings, forge, sometimes culture building, other hammer buildings if it's a mil unit city, commerce buildings if it's a commerce city, courthouse if it is an expensive city) most cities should build nothing but units - what's the point of spending 200 hammers on a university that will give you a measly 2 beakers/turn, you won't have a positive result (compared to building research) for 100 turns and the stuff you could've built in that time (the macemen or whatnot) will have benefited you much by then.

Yeah, I already follow this strategy as well. But I do have one question--are you saying that even in science/commerce cities it's not worth building universities?

[Krill]

Generally you ought to build as many unis as you need to get Oxfords, but after that the old adage "it depends" is the answer.

[Krill]

Just a guess, how many workers do you normally have for each city? Most people who have problems with expansion don;t have enough workers for their cities and can't keep up with improvements, which does damage their tech rate

[NFIH]

Originally posted by Krill
Just a guess, how many workers do you normally have for each city? Most people who have problems with expansion don;t have enough workers for their cities and can't keep up with improvements, which does damage their tech rate

I like to have two per city in the early game, but it depends on circumstances. If I'm crowded by others, I have to build settlers as quickly as possible to take land, then archers to defend against barb incursions which begin right around the time my fourth or fifth city is up, and so on. All of that means fewer workers.

[Blaupanzer]

NFIH, if you generally go (or want to go) for a cultural win, then don't start out on a map that encourages an antithetical playing style. Try Big and Small, or Fractal with only a limited number of AI depending on size, instead of a crowded Pangea.

PS - We can tell you're crowded since you say each civ has 4 or 5 cities when the early expansion is done.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by NFIH


What if I'm going for a culture win? Doesn't that make founding religions pretty much a requirement?

'Maybe'. Typically the AI is happy to give you religions, but on the other hand that relies on having AI nearby that actually get religions. On a Pangaea that is not much of a problem, usually. All you need is one city per religion to start with

Regardless, you don't have to adopt the religion you found as your state religion...

Yep, I already do this. Although I find you simply can't run more than 4-6 cities prior to this era without your research going down to 10% or 20% anyway and that can be problematic for me unless I'm planning on taking rival cities --but then I'm sort of locking myself into a military path, which I didn't necessarily want to do.

20% is fine for a while, especially with some SCI specialists. If you have only 4 cities by the point where core expansion is done, you are too small, period.

Yeah, I already follow this strategy as well. But I do have one question--are you saying that even in science/commerce cities it's not worth building universities?

No. I am saying that it's not worth building universities except in your commerce cities (excepting the caveat Kril brings up, of building enough to get Oxford's).

If you're doing the above - truly - then you shouldn't have a problem with the AI on anything below emperor; at or above that, your skill matters more, but it should still be quite possible to do fine. You definitely need to build enough cities to keep up with the AI though, and to heck with 20% tech rates.

[Hauptman]

It is that thing you call anoying that I call GREAT!

Izzy loves to pick fights, thats what makes her such a character. It's that charachter that makes her so much fun. Other civs like Bizmark, deGual, etc are boring, and never stand out. But Izzy, Monty, Catherine, Ghengis... They make the games! Especially when Montezuma is the points LEADER!

That happened a couple games ago, and I was totally floored. He had vassalized a whole continent, thank god he cant research a thing passed iron working. So He was never a threat, But man what a memorable game.

And every civ handles things different. Where as Izzy will march across a continent to harrass you, Huyana will happily continue building important wonders WHILE you systematicly capture each and every one of his cities. Gee thanks for all the free wonders pal.


The point is, Prepare for it, and It aint no thing. I've had games where Izzy declared on everyone BUT me, because I was preparred. Either by military buildup, or an alliance, she is easy to handle. Even when she does declare (friendly or not) you just kill off a few units, then let her bribe you for peace, That extra cash can usually make up for any lost time, by bumping up research rate or even buying buildings with Universal Sufferage.

But now we are getting onto a different subject, The Profitability of War!


Edit add on, By the way, why build settlers on a crowded pangea? Rush to iron working and build swords instead!~

It takes out other civs, wich gives you MORE expansion room, and gives you great city sites