Fiddling while Rome Burns

[egavactip]

Okay, here's the situation (generic but common). I am kicking a computer player's ass. He is in desperate straits. There is no way he can hope to stave me off.

So I'm a nice guy, plus I have other things I want to be doing rather than prosecute this war to the ultimate end. I'll just offer him a "peace" deal and get some juicy prizes out of it. I mean, the alternative for him is obliteration, right?

Yeah, but guess again. Although the screens have all these options where you can demand cities, techs, etc., from computer players in exchange for ending the war, I am not sure that the AI has ever once agreed to any of these items. Gold, yes, conversion, yes, a few other things, yes, but not something someone would actually care about.

Why are the computer players so intransigent? The alternative is death, after all. In SMAC, computer civilizations seem to have a much better understanding of when they are beat.

It would make the game play a lot more smoothly and quickly if computer players that are, in essence, walking corpses, would simply roll over like they should.

[snoopy369]

It's a gameplay decision. Computers will absolutely pay you off at a certain point in the war - the point at which they could still survive as a civ. After a certain point, they no longer will significantly pay you off (even, capitulate) because you've pushed them too far - or, in gameplay terms, to prevent you from just taking what you can from the civ as you are creaming it. You have to make a choice - peace and some stuff earlier on when the AI still has some chance, or cream it and get nothing out of it. 'Pillaging' dead civs for their tech is not good for gameplay, and was one of the exploits in earlier Civs that needed fixing - and was.

[egavactip]

I have never had them give me a city or tech once. Not early, not mid, not late.

[Supr49er]

Originally posted by egavactip
I have never had them give me a city or tech once. Not early, not mid, not late.

Well, it's certainly rare for me, but I've been gifted techs - never units or cities yet. I have seen posted screenshots of gifted cities. The only two ways I have gotten AI cities are by taking them, or (more rarely) culture flipping them.

[egavactip]

If they won't give you cities, I don't understand why you can demand them. It seems like a waste of time.

[snoopy369]

You're probably not asking at the right time, then ... I've most certainly had cities given to me (not units, but why would I want units?). I've had the AI offer me cities quite frequently, in addition to getting cities I have requested.

It's pretty much never going to give you a meaningful city, which is Working As Designed - it is bad for game balance if the AI will easily give you a large city, even if you are winning by a lot (either you can easily just take the city, or the AI has a lot of units and should not be willing to give the city up). It will often give you little cities, though, meaningless ones or ones near your culture border.

My suggestion is to set up a game and check every turn for a while what the AI will give you - and make sure it's not one of those wars where it is over around the same time as the AI stops refusing to talk to you, but a substantial war against a very large AI; one that appears close or at the AI's advantage, but after 20 or 30 turns of war you are able to pull out due to your superior firepower. If you check every turn what the AI is willing to give you, you'll see the 'bell curve' of what the AI is willing to give for peace quite easily.

[Hauptman]

I have had an AI offer up a CORE city in peace negotiations. Not something they captured from someone else, but a CORE one of the main 4 'they built' cities.

Now tech... Never seen that unless I was 1 turn from finishing it myself.

I have had Friendly civs just out and offer me techs all on thier own though. But that is a moment to charish.

[frenzyfol]

I've had 3-4 techs offered to me on Monarch/Emperor. Usually I will smash 3-4 cities and then offer peace. Enough to break their leg but not cut them in half.

One factor that stops them from offering anything is if you have had several periods of war - extort - peace - war - extort - peace.
I think they wize up to the whole thing after a while.

Well thats my experience anyway.

Also, the less you lose in the war the better. If you start to lose units the AI will wise up and not give you anything.

[Littiz]

I was offered a BIG city to end a war.

I assume the fact that it was going to be almost surrounded by my culture zone helped a lot.

Anyway, I was surprised.

[Fleme]

Well, as can be seen in the statements made on this thread the AI can go either way. Montezuma, who was driven to a small island and reduced to a size 1 city with nothing but 1 unit as a garrison refused capitulation all the way to the bitter end. Pacal, however, who still had some 10 cities remaining offered one of his first four cities (he had lost the other three already) to go along with his capitulation. Not that I wouldn't have taken the city by force anyways but it's nice to get a city on top of the capitulation and that way I saved some time and didn't have to suffer war weariness any longer.

Could the relations between you and said AI affect it? I razed almost every city Monty had and he was -40 towards me while I didn't raze any of Pacal's and he was like -5.

[martin mcmartin]

I would not even want the AI to just give me (too many)cities! it has occurred, small and larger, but I think it is totally right that the AI is not a pushover. the AI reacts exactly the same way I would, I never give away a city, good thing they don't either. and with techs, I have been getting a lot of offers, units never though, but hey, who would want more units..."don't bring 50 when only 15 will do the job".

and, Snoopy is right. check now and then what they offer. one turn it could be a single tech, a few later it is 2 and a city!

MC

[The Priest]

But the game is rather more subtle than egavactip suggests. For yes we can all think 'I could easily finish you off so why not give me something worthwhile' but in fact, there is a huge cost to us noramlly if we do finish the AI off. Mainly in terms of war-weariness. That extra 10-20 turns of war, can cause havoc back at home, sufficient havoc that you fall back in relation to other AIs. Hence even if you are winning a war, you can also be desparate to finish it - fighting it to the end can be the downfall of both of you (ok him immediatley, you gradually). Hence the negotiations are in fact far more balanced. And this is why Civ IV is a great game. (IMHO)

[egavactip]

Originally posted by The Priest
But the game is rather more subtle than egavactip suggests. For yes we can all think 'I could easily finish you off so why not give me something worthwhile' but in fact, there is a huge cost to us noramlly if we do finish the AI off. Mainly in terms of war-weariness. That extra 10-20 turns of war, can cause havoc back at home, sufficient havoc that you fall back in relation to other AIs. Hence even if you are winning a war, you can also be desparate to finish it - fighting it to the end can be the downfall of both of you (ok him immediatley, you gradually). Hence the negotiations are in fact far more balanced. And this is why Civ IV is a great game. (IMHO)

But this is kind of my whole point. There is a cost to "finishing the AI off," just as you suggest. So I might well be inclined to let things slide if I can get something good from the computer opponent. But if he is not going to play ball and give me something juicy, it is not going to be worth my while and I might as well knock him out of the game.

However, the AI's, even in desperate straits, don't seem to realize they are in desperate straits. So rather than try to buy me off with something better than the coins in their piggy bank, they simply insure their own complete destruction.

[Wiglaf]

The title of this thread is misleading.

[Supr49er]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
The title of this thread is misleading.

You were hoping for Nero?