Best use of Great Artist?

[NFIH]

I know the general answer is "situational" or "depends," but if you're going for a culture victory is it better to bomb the Great Artists for the 4,000 points or settle it for the +12 culture/turn?

It seems like the latter is so small as to make little difference compared to the 4,000 (which would be about 333 turns at 12 points/turn, I'm assuming), but I'm sure I'm missing something about how this works, so please clue me in.

[Wiglaf]

It seems like the latter is so small as to make little difference compared to the 4,000 (which would be about 333 turns at 12 points/turn, I'm assuming), but I'm sure I'm missing something about how this works, so please clue me in.

Using the +12 points a turn button instead of the lump sum should automatically quit the game and open a site for the nearest basic algebra tutor. Avoid this button, and do not play the lottery.

[jbp26]

well the +12 gets multiplied by free speech, hermitage, broadway, hollywood, etc, and your culture slider. so it could potentially be a lot more than just 12 a turn. typically i just use GAs to culture bomb the city that generates the least culture naturally- but im no expert.

[wodan11]

Depends on WHEN you get the GA. Early in the game, add it to which of your "big 3" cities you think will lag behind the others.

Later in the game, save it for a bomb. And I do mean SAVE it. Don't use it until you're ready to win.

Wodan

[Wiglaf]

The odds of the +12 points being useful is slight considering free speech and those other absurd buildings come so late. I am right about this.

[Supr49er]

What, no love for Civilized Jewelers?

[rah]

IF not going for a culture victory (which is most of my games since i really like war) I usually reserve them for Golden Ages. If I have extras I'll use them on blitzs where I clear a lot of AI cities in a few turns. I like to culture bomb the center city before the scavangers send in settlers and build those inbetween cities while all of my conquered cities are still waiting to come out of revolt. Quite annoying.

I have never added one as a specialist (when not playing for a culture victory), even in border cites. I'd rather build the culture buildings then waste a GA that way. And if the culture war is that intense, just capture the city puting the pressure on it.

And unless it's really early, I never settle one when trying for a culture victory.

[TriMiro]

I have played for cultural victory when I have settled the GA. I have done the math and with the right combination of cathedrals and free speech it evens with the 4000 bomb in about 100 turns. That is not even counting the small cash bonus.

I was playing Ghandi, so lots of religions and lots of GP.

[wodan11]

+12 is significant if you go the cathedral route. What "absurd" buildings are you talking about Wiglaf?

The question is at what point does the +12 surpass the +4000 (or whatever, depends on game speed I think). Well, let's ignore Free Speech and Hermitage etc and just look at cathedrals. Say you only have 4 cathedrals. That's +200%. So, that's 60/turn. 4000/60 = just 66 turns.

Jewelers is a good point Supr49er but only needs 1 GA. A late one, at that. If you get an early GA I would still settle him because I know I'm going to have another 10-12 GAs later in the game, any one of which can spawn Jewelers for me. Even assuming I have the resources or can trade for them, plus that I'm going to bother to tech all the way to Mass Media.

Rah, I'm not sure why you tossed that out because the OP is asking about culture victories. Anyway, for CVs, golden ages are best if you cottage spam your "big 3". If you go the specialist route then a golden age doesn't help culture, it just provides more GPP. Which is a benefit, true, but I'm not sure it would be better than a culture bomb. You'd have to get enough bonus GPP to make at least 2 more artists, and that's probably not gonna happen. Even if you have all of your "big 3" going the specialist route and running 10+ artists each, that's +30 GPP/turn, for 15 turns maybe, so an extra 450 GPP in total. By that point in the game each GP cost over 1000 GP so definitely not worth it.

The main thing about golden ages is that it takes a LOT of GP. To get just 4 golden ages requires 10 GP. If they were all Artists then that's 10*4000 = 40,000 culture!

Of course they can't all be artists under that scenario. In fact, under that scenario you would probably NOT be able to have your GP farm be one of your "big 3". Precisely because you couldn't run all artists to get the mix you need to fuel all your golden ages. Nothing wrong with that, except that it means you have 4 useless cities instead of only 3.

But, anyway, a golden age would add about +15 raw culture per turn in each of your "big 3", right? +15 times say 350% = about 70/turn, for say 15 turns = only 1,050 culture. Definitely much worse than a culture bomb, even for the very first golden age, and it gets progressively worse since it takes multiple GP to generate further golden ages.

Wodan

[rah]

I don't know if they AI realizes you're close to winning but I had one game I was getting close and the AI attacked. They were 3 squares away from one of my big 3 when I settled 3 Great artists to top off the two lagging cities. I win.

[snoopy369]

If you're going for a culture victory, in your lowest culture city of the 3 you should have something like:

Hermitage (+100%)
3 Cathedrals (+150%)
Free Speech (+100%)
Broadcast Tower (+50%)
One of Hollywood/Rock + Roll/Broadway (+50%)

If you don't have hermitage you can easily make up for it with 2 of those wonders + 1 more cathedral.

That's +450%, so 12 goes to 54/turn. 4000/54 is in the neighborhood of 75 turns; so it depends on if you are near that neighborhood or not. I've seen cities with higher bonuses (around +600%), but not often.

75 turns is almost certainly too far away - given that a reasonably productive (either hammers or commerce) city should be able to generate at least 100-150 raw culture, in addition to its buildings presumably generating ~50 more raw culture, at 450% you should be getting something like 800 culture per turn at minimum (if you have no wonders other than the Hermitage and Broadway, even). 50000/800 is substantially less than 75 turns... so you probably are going to be getting more than that I'd think, and would prefer the 4000 boost.

My guess is that the latest point it would be useful would be something around 150 turns prior to victory - in a normal game probably somewhere around turn 250 give or take 50 turns. That means it will pay for itself at an average rate of +250% or so, which is quite feasible over that span (say +100% for 50 turns, +200% for 50 turns, +450% for 50 turns).

Either way there is certainly a point at which it is better to settle, and a point thereafter where it is better to save it. Overall I vote save - save to the bitter end, in fact, because you won't know until fairly close to your victory exactly where you'll need it; usually your #2 and #3 cities are determined later, and if it's me they're both close to each other in culture.

[wodan11]

I think the AI does take notice if you're close to winning.

Wodan

[snoopy369]

Wodan, your math is wrong... 12+200% is 36, not 60

[wodan11]

Right. Well, just add in Free Speech and it comes out about the same.

Wodan

[snoopy369]

12+300% is 48