Specialist use: After full population or sooner?

[NFIH]

Here's a dilemma I constantly face: At what point should I have my Great Person cities go all out to make GP full time?

Do I wait until the city has grown to its full population size and then switch as much of the population as possible to specialists (to maximize output)? Or do I wait only until I've got a building that allows specialists (say, forge, courthouse, etc.) and then run the one or two specialists those allow, but as a consequence severely cut back the city's growth--and ability to actually build things?

Which approach is judged to be the most efficient?

I know the wisdom is to run caste, but the problem there is you have to abandon slavery, which is just invaluable for quickly growing the rest of your empire, and doubly important in times of war.

Right now what I do is *typically* stay away from caste, run just a few specialists in my GP city and switch them off to hammer tiles when I need to build more improvements (e.g. other buildings that enable more specialists). But as a result I fear I'm not generating as many GP as I should.

What's your strategic approach?

[Crossfire]

Well.... it depends. Do I have any other way to generate research? If not then I have as many science specialists as I can as soon as I can. Or if I am in a culture war in a particular city I will assign some artists. I may even do that in my GPP pump for a cycle in the hopes of popping a great artist so that I can culture bomb. Other games I have tons of cottages and production and let everyone work tiles.

[Fleme]

Well there are obviously going to be varying opinions for this one but here's mine:

If you REX (Rapid Early Expansion) and as a result your research spending plummets, it's good to remedy this with specialists. On average, with adequate research spending one can expect to have some 20 produced from roughly 4 early cities and needless to say, that 20 is not that much. For comparison, a scientist generates 3. Now, my playstyle nearly always revolves around getting the Pyramids and on Monarch it's pretty much guaranteed that I get them if I set my mind to it. Then I can switch to representation, which in turn doubles the research power of my scientists, with each generating 6 . It doesn't take a genius to see that now just by having 4 scientists you can outdo the previous 20 and this is not dependant on your research spending either.

To summarize; My usual research path leads to Masonry, with the immediate techs for tapping my capital resources prior to it and followed by Bronze Working and Writing. I build a pair of workers, settle my second city and start on the Pyramids. (or build another settler and then start; Depends on my position). And since it's not at all hard to have up to 5 cities with some sort of a food resource readily available in the start, you now have a nice start for a budding specialist economy. With the food resources tapped, every city can become a science generator even at the humble size of 3 by working the food tile and having the other two citizens act as scientists. Since the happiness cap is at 5, it's not a bad idea to slow down growth by having small cities work the scientists and it also grants you valuable research and will give you an abundance of Great Scientists (Philo bulb, academy and settled specialists in your to-be Oxford City).

Caste System is not absolutely necessary but is of course really nice to have. The reality is that it'll be one city or if you're really lucky, two cities, running more than those 2 specialists. I personally consider this to be enough of a bonus for me to run CS since there's nothing like having swarms of Great Scientists at your disposal.

The nice thing about a specialist economy is is that you can just simply stop it at any time and send your scientists to the mines when you happen to need a few buildings made or units trained and after that you can just assign them back to their specialist job. I like to think that a specialist economy is easier to tune for each specific occasion while a cottage economy has the benefit of being steady and becoming more powerful late game as the improvements mature.

Now, even one city can carry the Empire research-wise. My capital from the game I mentioned in your other thread can be seen here:



950 AD, I'm just about to go to War and my capital was actually in this save building the Sistine Chapel (which I didn't get) but I changed it to my specialist layout. 9 Scientists (one is hidden) +2 from the GL and 3 settled Great Scientists and the city is producing 220 in 950 AD. Low? Considering that my entire empire at that particular time produced no more than 300, I'm just going to say that the city pretty much carries the research. Have you ever seen a capital spot so sweet? It's probably the best I ever had.

So to put it short; I find that it's good to have a specialist-powered research city no matter what, even if you're running a cottage economy just because the specialists aren't going to lose power even if you have to run low research.

My by far preferred civic choices are Representation/Bureaucracy/Caste System/Mercantilism/Pacifism. True specialist economy

But enough blowing the specialist horn; The game pretty much dictates your playstyle and while I like being able to disregard the slider and gain my research and gold from other sources (city with similar treatment money-wise, shrines, etc.) there are times for both. When I have a Financial leader I often focus on a cottage economy but I don't think I ever start a game these days without running specialists in the start. The wonder of it is that it gets up to speed so fast whereas a cottage economy will take time to mature and develop and a specialist city is often very good for production too (atleast for me) since they're located near food sources and can support miners if need be.

I'm blabbering here, but I really do hope that this was atleast somewhat helpful to you NFIH.

[NFIH]

Well, I'm impressed, Fleme! In my current game I've just hit the Middle Ages and, while I'm in a good position on my continent (leading), I don't think I'm even doing 200 research per turn yet. But I'm prepping for war and am simply going to take what everyone else has. Hah!

I'll study what you had to say and apply it from the start in my next game. Thanks for the info and advice!

[jbp26]

keep in mind theres a world of difference between running specialists and running a specialist economy. i dont have much experience running a specialist economy, so i wont comment on that, but just running a few specialists is pretty important as well. libraries are some of the first buildings i build, so i will almost always try to run at least one scientist per city as early as possible. it makes a big jump in your research, and its easy to switch off- if you really need to crank out military or a wonder, just have the specialist work a tile. its especially useful on higher levels where your population caps so quickly.

i typically dont use caste system unless i have a huge food surplus in most of cities or am running a specialist economy.

[snoopy369]

I certainly would run two scientist specialists in many cities well before they were fully grown. Typically in the early to mid game you have a happiness cap that is pretty low (6-8 depending on religion and available resources, and lower with very high diff level); this means it's not necessarily a bad thing to limit growth in cities where repeated whipping isn't needed. Sometimes the 6 (or 12 in rep) science is worth more than the extra hammers you'd be getting (6 hammers) from whipping; sometimes not. It all depends

[wodan11]

There are at least 3 to 4 very distinct types of SE playstyle strategies.

Regardless of that, the OP really was asking about a GP Farm. There are at least 3 broad types of GP farm. They all have pros/cons.
-- food / one type
-- food / multiple types
-- production

Regarding the decision to run specialists prior to max food or not, that's really a question not about your GP farm, but about any city. If your primary goal is GPP, perhaps to churn out a specific type of GP, then this is a valid question. Maybe you need a prophet to make a shrine, or maybe you want a great scientist to lightbulb Philosophy or make an Academy.

Timing is an issue, because if another city beats out this city in making a GP, then that increases the # of GPP. In fact, you could have a GP farm outstripping this city, and it's possible the city will never make a GP (before the game ends).

Whether or not you're whipping in that city matters. If you're whipping, then that city will rarely be at max size and thus you would hardly be running any specialists at all.

Lastly, how much food the city makes is an issue. Each specialist eats 2 food which slows down city growth.

Wodan

[NFIH]

Originally posted by wodan11

Regarding the decision to run specialists prior to max food or not, that's really a question not about your GP farm, but about any city. If your primary goal is GPP, perhaps to churn out a specific type of GP, then this is a valid question. Maybe you need a prophet to make a shrine, or maybe you want a great scientist to lightbulb Philosophy or make an Academy.

OK, so if my goal is indeed to pump out great people, should I typically try to get the population up to max cap before running specialists, or not?

Timing is an issue, because if another city beats out this city in making a GP, then that increases the # of GPP. In fact, you could have a GP farm outstripping this city, and it's possible the city will never make a GP (before the game ends).

Sorry, I'm not clear on what you're saying here. I must be missing something about the game mechanics. Can you clarify?

Whether or not you're whipping in that city matters. If you're whipping, then that city will rarely be at max size and thus you would hardly be running any specialists at all.

Right, but this was my conundrum--whipping in a food rich city is a great way to erect buildings that themselves open up more specialists. At the moment I'm just not sure when I should stop. For example, should I whip until I get a forge, then switch on a couple of engineer specialists and stop whipping any further (except for whatever whipping will not force me to remove the specialists)? Or should I continually whip/build other specialist-producing buildings?

[Supr49er]

Originally posted by snoopy369
I certainly would run two scientist specialists in many cities well before they were fully grown...

Absolutely yes, as soon as you get a library put two scientist specialists to use.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by NFIH
OK, so if my goal is indeed to pump out great people, should I typically try to get the population up to max cap before running specialists, or not?

Depends on what kind of GP farm you're running.

Most people pick their highest food city and make that their GP farm. This city will have 3-5 food resources, plus floodplain or lots of grass. They'll farm everything, no cottages.

This city will be able to run a ton of specialists. It also will get to the health and happiness limits very quickly. And yes typically they will wait until it reaches max, though it's making so much food if you wanted to do one or two early that wouldn't make much difference.

Sorry, I'm not clear on what you're saying here. I must be missing something about the game mechanics. Can you clarify?

The number of Great People Points (GPP) that you need to make a Great Person inceases for each one you make. The first GP costs 100 GPP. Second costs 200 GPP. Third costs 300. And so on, up to 1000, when it starts ramping up even faster.

So, say you have one city making 500 GPP a turn. Say you have another city making 100 GPP a turn. Will the second city EVER make a great person? Nope.

Right, but this was my conundrum--whipping in a food rich city is a great way to erect buildings that themselves open up more specialists. At the moment I'm just not sure when I should stop. For example, should I whip until I get a forge, then switch on a couple of engineer specialists and stop whipping any further (except for whatever whipping will not force me to remove the specialists)? Or should I continually whip/build other specialist-producing buildings?

Personally I would advise you to devote just ONE city to making GP. Don't even put any thought into other cities. NO thought, at all.

There are reasons why just one city is better, and we can talk about that if you want.

Early game may be an exception. You can reasonably manage having two or three cities all making GP. This is tricky though and honestly it would be better for you to get a handle on other aspects first.

Wodan

[snoopy369]

If you have a GPP dedicated city, you don't build things in it except those that help build GPPs:
* Granary
* Aqueduct
* Sometimes, a happiness building or two, if you need

Then, if you're running caste system, you need nothing else except 2 national wonders, two out of {National Epic, Globe Theater, National Forest} generally for me. The rest of your pop/food should go to GPPs

[NFIH]

Originally posted by wodan11

The number of Great People Points (GPP) that you need to make a Great Person inceases for each one you make. The first GP costs 100 GPP. Second costs 200 GPP. Third costs 300. And so on, up to 1000, when it starts ramping up even faster.

So, say you have one city making 500 GPP a turn. Say you have another city making 100 GPP a turn. Will the second city EVER make a great person? Nope.

OMG, I'd totally forgotten about this mechanic. This would seem to be the main reason to keep GPP-building to one city. Thanks for reminding me.

[NFIH]

Originally posted by snoopy369
If you have a GPP dedicated city, you don't build things in it except those that help build GPPs:
* Granary
* Aqueduct
* Sometimes, a happiness building or two, if you need

Then, if you're running caste system, you need nothing else except 2 national wonders, two out of {National Epic, Globe Theater, National Forest} generally for me. The rest of your pop/food should go to GPPs

How far do you go? For example, markets come further down the line than libraries. Do you bother to build markets in your GPP city so you can make a great merchant?

[wodan11]

Originally posted by snoopy369
If you have a GPP dedicated city, you don't build things in it except those that help build GPPs:
* Granary
* Aqueduct
* Sometimes, a happiness building or two, if you need

Then, if you're running caste system, you need nothing else except 2 national wonders, two out of {National Epic, Globe Theater, National Forest} generally for me. The rest of your pop/food should go to GPPs

I agree with this, if what you mean to say is don't dilute your food-producing improvements with commerce or hammer producing improvements.

I would point out however that this only applies if your GPP-dedicated city (aka GP Farm) is food/specialist in nature and are running caste system.

For one thing, there's the production GP farm, which is radically different.

Secondly, if you're not running caste system, then you need to build things simply to enable specialists. Library to allow 2 scientists, etc.

Anyway, depending on what specialists and civics you're running, it's foolish to waste the income from this city. e.g., if you are running all merchants, then it would be wise to build a bank to boost all the gold income. And if you're running representation, then all those specialists are producing science, and it would be wise to have a university for the same reason.

Wodan

[Fleme]

My scientist farm is usually built in the way you see Kyoto in the picture. Library, Academy, as many monasteries as I can plus the other improvements required to optimize the city. I also like having a Forge for when the city is producing. As for other cities if the terrain allows I will try and make a second city with a similar purpose but that's about it. As for the rest I'm very content if they can run 2 scientists if necessary.

As for what specialists to use; I personally feel that scientists are the only ones worth using in excess and remain useful throughout the game. I very rarely use merchant specialists but there are times when you want to use artists (aiming for a cultural win), priests (didn't pop a prophet and need a shrine) and later on Engineers when you get Factories and Industrial Parks in cities that can support specialists. I sometimes run 1 Engineer with my x scientists in hopes of a Great Engineer Pop. I don't use Spy specialists either.

Now, by having a highly specialized city or two lets you build the remainder of your empire as you please. The game featured in that screenshot I had my capital pumping science all the way, later with the help of those riverside cottages too (the science output _can_ go past the scientists if you are patient) and my coastal riverside city was the gold generator allowing me to have EVERY other city focused on production. I always like to play by a certain theme and I feel that the Japanese need an empire geared for war

Now, I went back and checked my empire in 1840 AD when things had already balanced out and specialists had outlived their "golden age". (spawning great people gets too slow to be useful later on in the game). At this time my coastal commerce (which had also became my capital for the Bureaucracy bonus) city was producing 1240 gold per turn (yes, 1240 gold per turn from one city) and also had 3 merchant specialists! (almost forgot!) and my former capital Kyoto was producing a meager 280 Research. Now, it was still clearly the leading research city of my empire with it's 6 scientists and now +3 engineers (war time, no more Caste System or Representation), second one being my commerce city with 150 The remaining 15~ cities were lucky to break 50 each coming to a total of 1475 research per turn.

With those two cities focusing on the essentials, this left my 15~ other developed cities free for production and that they did. Every "old" city of my empire including those captured from the Arabs were generating roughly 150 hammers per turn with the highest one being at 280 (Ironworks). Now why did I have to write such a long story about this again?

Well, the thing is; If I had not specialised those two cities to a great extent I would have had to improve my production cities with cottages instead of farms, watermills and workshops, drastically cutting their production capabilities. The power of specializing a few cities lies in giving you freedom to do whatever you want with the rest of your empire, be it producing military units or for improving the land for further research/commerce.

My ideal build of an empire goes along these lines; All research and the essential happiness/health structures + Oxford and National Epic in my research farm; Moving capital to my commerce city and building the all the commercial structures + Wall Street and for third, the production city Ironworks and either HE or West Point.

You should really tinker around with specializing cities. It gives a lot of freedom in your other game choices. I really like specialized economies.

If one needs to look for a con; A precision strike on my coastal commerce city would kill me. Instantly. 75% of my empire's gold comes from it.