What could/should I have done differently here?

[NFIH]

I was in a Noble, continents-sized game. I had Montezuma on my south border, Asoka on my east border and Darius on the north. I was in second place just behind Asoka, with Darius in third and Monty last. (Whatever others there were must have been on another continent.)

Of course, Monty soon declared on me. His early medieval-era SoD, of which he had only one, could be contained, but I got Asoka to counter-declare on him anyway, so we could end it early and I could focus on keeping pace with Asoka.

It worked--but too well. The next thing I knew, Monty had accepted vassalage with Asoka. Arrghh.

The problem? There was no way I could finish off Monty without having to also fight Asoka who was already in the lead. And because Monty went vassal with Asoka as a course of war, Monty wasn't going to be able to break vassal status. Asoka would simply continue to pull away from me.

Thus, I judged even at this early stage that the game was effectively over.

What else could I have done? Comments and suggestions welcome!

[snoopy369]

The game is most certainly not effectively over You typically lose score relative to the AI in the mid-game, and then recover it in the later game once your costs are under control (somewhere between Medieval and Renaissance eras).

The obvious solution is to war with Asoka, eventually. It may be easier to first take out Darius, however, to allow you more space to grow and more tech/hammers.

Eventually you should be able to beat Asoka simply by building a better military than him, and by using it better. By cannons/grens, if not before that. It's not hard to beat an AI in that era, even a stronger one, because they won't use their units right, and they'll build a SoD that you can easily clearcut once it reaches your shores.

[Supr49er]

Could you post a screenshot or save?

[wodan11]

Depending on map, you can keep peace with Asoka, focus on infrastructure, search out islands and other continents to settle/conquer, and adopt State Property. No problem.

Wodan

[NFIH]

Originally posted by Supr49er
Could you post a screenshot or save?

Sorry, deleted all the saves. But I'm sure to encounter another similar scenario sooner or later and, if I face the same dilemma, I may indeed post as you've asked.

[NFIH]

Originally posted by snoopy369

The obvious solution is to war with Asoka, eventually. It may be easier to first take out Darius, however, to allow you more space to grow and more tech/hammers.

Yes, this was my initial impulse. The concern I had here was that Darius was about evenly split in religion between mine (confucianism) and Asoka's (Buddism), so I was wary about going to war against Darius and triggering a three-pronged attack on me.

Second, I was quite worried--even convinced--that if I moved any appreciable number of troops north to take Darius, Asoka and Monty would declare on me in a war of opportunity and I would lose that way. (I've been backstabbed this way so many times in the past that I'm very wary of it.)

Unfounded fears, you think?

[Swiss Pauli]

If you could contain and then go on the offensive against Monty then there was no need to bring in Asoka. Then you could have used your army against Asoka, or tried to out-do him for a peaceful win.

[Fleme]

Similar experience:

I was a bit disheartened at my current Monarch game where I was in a similar situation as you were in your game. Fractal forming a long snaky continent with me on the western tip surrounded by Elizabeth, Saladin and Hannibal to the southeast. Now as it were, Hannibal was pretty strong and soon vassalized Elizabeth and Saladin went in and out of being his Vassal.

I took a few of Saladins cities in a war after which the AP forced peace and during this peace Saladin once again became Vassal to Hannibal who now had a clear lead and had me holed up in my corner. Situations like this always mean war so I prepared. I built a stack of Samurai/Trebs and took out the remainder of Saladin's land while maintaining a garrison facing Hannibal. I also bribed Mansa Musa from the other side of Hannibal to join in on the fray a few turns prior of my actual declaration so Hannibal was tied there. So with this I took out the remaining Arabian cities (5) and reinforced my position. Hannibals war with MM ended in a draw and the only conclusion was me being able to take his vassal out.

Moving on, Hannibal still retained much of his original power and still maintained strong and I could not afford another conquest war so I teched to rifles (Japanese Gunpowder units are so sweet) and waited. Sure enough, Hannibal soon declared war and strode in with a stack consisting mostly of Cavalry which were promptly disposed by my Rifles. I was teching towards Assembly line at this point and just defended until the teching was done and then upgraded my rifles to infantry, took out Elizabeth (actually made her my Vassal) and started pummeling Hannibal. Mansa Musa on the other side was also gaining headway so it didn't take long for Hannibal to fall from number 1 spot with a vast empire and 2 vassals to being a vassal to Mansa Musa.

How is this relevant? Your game is all but lost. Asoka is one of those leaders who maintain a very weak army and their garrisons are equally as weak. And you say Monty was in no position to break free from Asoka? That means he's no danger to you either. Stick a defensive army on the border facing Montezuma and prepare an attack on India; set your goals on taking a few core cities and if need be, to burn a few more. If your defensive army is attacked and wins Monty's stack, you can use it to move on the cities that Asoka captured from Monty.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by NFIH


Yes, this was my initial impulse. The concern I had here was that Darius was about evenly split in religion between mine (confucianism) and Asoka's (Buddism), so I was wary about going to war against Darius and triggering a three-pronged attack on me.

Second, I was quite worried--even convinced--that if I moved any appreciable number of troops north to take Darius, Asoka and Monty would declare on me in a war of opportunity and I would lose that way. (I've been backstabbed this way so many times in the past that I'm very wary of it.)

Unfounded fears, you think?

What was your power ratio? If you have more power than Asoka, which you should have, you don't have to worry about that very much. You should be able to quickly invade an enemy and at least take enough from him that you are able to guarantee the ability to request peace from him at any point once the cooling off period ends (the five or so turns where you can't ask for peace). If Asoka is able to declare war and significantly damage you in five turns, you don't have enough military; and he's not going to (there is a relatively long, 10-20 turn period between when an AI decides to declare war and when he actually does).

My guess is you need to work on your military tactics, or on your military preparations. That, or you need to work on your self-confidence

[NFIH]

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli
If you could contain and then go on the offensive against Monty then there was no need to bring in Asoka. Then you could have used your army against Asoka, or tried to out-do him for a peaceful win.

I should clarify: I had just enough to stop Monty, but certainly couldn't do more than raid a few of his outlying tiles in retaliation (which I did do). This was why I was worried about the other AIs seeing me struggle with Monty and then join in to finish me off.

[NFIH]

Originally posted by snoopy369


What was your power ratio? If you have more power than Asoka, which you should have, you don't have to worry about that very much.

Unfortunately, he was rated higher in power than me.

My guess is you need to work on your military tactics, or on your military preparations. That, or you need to work on your self-confidence

Yep, that's about the long and short of it.

[NFIH]

Originally posted by Fleme
Similar experience:

I was a bit disheartened at my current Monarch game where I was in a similar situation as you were in your game. Fractal forming a long snaky continent with me on the western tip surrounded by Elizabeth, Saladin and Hannibal to the southeast. Now as it were, Hannibal was pretty strong and soon vassalized Elizabeth and Saladin went in and out of being his Vassal.

I took a few of Saladins cities in a war after which the AP forced peace and during this peace Saladin once again became Vassal to Hannibal who now had a clear lead and had me holed up in my corner. Situations like this always mean war so I prepared. I built a stack of Samurai/Trebs and took out the remainder of Saladin's land while maintaining a garrison facing Hannibal. I also bribed Mansa Musa from the other side of Hannibal to join in on the fray a few turns prior of my actual declaration so Hannibal was tied there.

Interesting. A couple of questions:

One, how did you manage to maintain what sounds like fairly strong research and build up to fight this war? That is, I don't know how many cities you had, but to gear up for war fast means converting non-military cities temporarily to military and pumping out what you can before the enemy has enough time to generate defences that are too strong a deterrent. But that means research has to suffer--such as the very teching you needed to get to riflemen, etc. What was your approach here? Did you altogether abandon building wonders you otherwise thought were necessary to your particular strategy?

The bribery bit is also something I'm still trying to get a hang of. I tend to worry I'm giving too much away too soon or spoiling my own advantage in some way co I play conservatively. So my second question is, what sorts of bribe/gifts did you offer, how many, and for how long before you declared war?

[Fleme]

At that time I had 9 cities plus three that I had captured from Saladin in the first war (these cities were worthless at this point, naturally)

I ran a specialist economy which was fueled by my stellar capital (16 grassland squares, 5 hills, river, corn, banana, wheat, elephant, gems) which has the Pyramids and the Great Library. I also settled the majority of the scientists the city produced. I have three cities that are on really productive spots and these alone could well keep the military rolling and in war time even my lesser cities could produce Rifles in 6-8 turns (Marathon).

Given that capital location I had a relatively easy start and did manage to get some early wonders (Pyramids, Great Library, Great Wall, ToA, Statue of Zeus + some others), the 2 first in my capital and the rest in my second city which was good for production. My early game was quite peaceful and since I knew what was coming I could prepare for it.

Back on the tech issue; You'd be surprised how much a city with 7 Scientists and 3 settled Great Scientists research when you're running Representation. My capital carried my research through the war, and through the entire game really.

My most common bribe is gold or occasionally a tech. I try not to give away military techs but will give up technologies like CoL, Philosophy and Liberalism if that gets me an ally. I do the bribing either 3-5 turns prior to my declaration to make the AI move their focus or sometimes after I've started the war if I want to let the other AI flank unprotected cities. Usually the prior but sometimes you have to go with the latter.