I like ORG over FIN. Is something wrong with me?

[EternalSpark]

So as I was playing the Dutch today, I realized something:

If I had to choose FIN or ORG, I'd rather choose ORG.

Here's why, as I see it:

- FIN's benefits are maximized on coastal squares, ORG's benefits are maximized regardless of base placement.

- FIN requires(?) a certain type of improvement schema that take many many (at least, in Epic or Marathon mode) turns to develop, whereas ORG doesn't need anything to start saving you money.

- In the early-early game, I'm able to support more cities early on with ORG than FIN. With FIN, these cities are money pits. With ORG, these are money smoothed-down pits with softer sides.

- While I don't tend to use Factories a lot, Courthouses and Lighthouses are relatively important buildings, which I can get online faster as an ORG than a FIN.

- Because I can support more cities early, my Research Percentage doesn't drop as much under ORG as FIN, improving early-game (and usually vital) techs.

These are just a few - I had a long post that I lost earlier about this - but I'm curious.

[MJW]

FIN had enough raw power in plain Civ4 to overcome its issues. So much so it was a tad overpowered. So then they nerfed it to much. FIN is a n00b trait because its bonus are passive and you don't have to do anything to get them. It also does not help you do anything much better. And due to the fact 'bigger is better' strats like FIN which are passive and 'spread out' tend to suck. This caused the game-makers (Sirain et. all) to underesimate it and make it overpowered.

Warlord nerfed that trait a lot by doing something I don't remenber. Now ORG is much better on the levels that really matter.

[Robert]

FIN doesn't only get max effect on coastal cities. It gets it's effect on all cottages and all tiles that have more then 1 commerce.

ORG can't be maxed out. It just gives a reduced maintenance, and that's it. There's nothing you can do to expand it or bennefit more from it.

I disagree that FIN is passive. Obviously it's not as active as industrial, but you still need to work your tiles in the right way to gain maximum bennefit.

[couerdelion]

Quite right. If anything, ORG is the passive trait and FIN the active one and I personally find FIN the easier to leverage off. For one thing, FIN gives you the faster start in quite a few situations and that is a big bonus.

For dealing with larger empires, they are probably even, and perhaps ORG has an advantage here. With state property, ORG loses much of its charms and with the late game commerce bonuses FIN adds even more.

I guess this might be a lot to do with playing style. Some styles play more to the benefits of ORG while others work better with FIN. I can’t say that I am a huge fan of the cottage economy – it lacks flexibility – but it works with FIN and it takes little to get going.

Give me an island site with Ragnar with Colossus and Great Lighthouse over most other empires any day.

[MoonWolf]

If you play an island map, ORG would probably be better. So as usual, it's dependent on the settings You also have take into account the cheaper buildings vs. extra commerce, but that again depends.

All-in-all, I feel they are pretty well balanced and it's all about exploiting the bonus(es) in the correct way.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by MoonWolf
If you play an island map, ORG would probably be better. So as usual, it's dependent on the settings

Cheaper Great Lighthouse (230 hammers vs 260 hammers).

But I think that the general lighthouse improvement is a little lower down the list of build priorities, even on islands, since there are usually seafood resources that provide a decent food source.

[MoonWolf]

I was thinking more of courthouses (even lower maintenance + quicker espionage points) and factories When I have played an ORG civ, I find that the cheap factories are quite a boost in the late game.

[couerdelion]

Why would courthouses work so well on an island map? Or factories, even.

[snoopy369]

ORG is a huge boost in two places: cheap courthouses = lower maintenance mid-game, and lower civics cost = lower maintenance late-game (when inflation is big). FIN is a huge boost in the early to mid game (where the 1C/Tile makes a huge difference). The reason most people like FIN, IMO, is that it is a huge boost when commerce is hard to come by; by the late game there are a lot of ways to get the commerce you need; and the way difficulties work, at the difficulty where you can barely scrape by early/mid game, you can generally dominate late game. Thus, Fin helps significantly when you actually need it for most players, while ORG helps a lot, but at a point where you probably don't need it as much. This may not be true in your case, and thus why you prefer ORG

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by couerdelion
Why would courthouses work so well on an island map? Or factories, even.

Courthouses: Colony maintenance, if it's an island map that has large enough islands for several cities per island. (I think maintenance on an island city is still somewhat higher than on a land-connected city anyway, due to the water tiles.)

Factories: My guess would be that you have a harder time getting hammers on island maps? I don't play them much (and don't play hammer-heavy style on island maps when I do)...

[Hauptman]

You could always just play Darius and get them both...

If you windmill rivered hills and cotages along rivers, Financial is HUGE early game.

Cheap factories are real nice. But org's other traits are too hard to even notice..

[Theben]

ORG can help early on also with REX, allowing you to secure more land earlier than you otherwise could with a non-ORG civ.

[Fleme]

How exactly? By being able to build courthouses faster? The whip cracks just fine for non-organized leaders too and the effect of having to pay less for civic choices yields a really meaningless bonus if anything.

I personally don't like Organized.

[EternalSpark]

@Cybershy - I kinda disagree. ORG can't be maxed out, perhaps, but I would argue that the more cities you can support earlier, the more you've used ORG's strength to its fullest advantage. I suppose my playstyle is one of rapid early expansion, getting more land / territory than my opponents, and then using that weight to win. FIN doesn't help that for me, because I do most of my major expansion in the early game, where I don't have workers pre-cottaging up the areas.

@couerdelion - I rarely do state property; I like the trade routes and lower Corp cost of Free Market.

@Hauptman - Yeah, if you windmill and cottage up, FIN is huge. I don't deny that. But I do most of my playing in Epic or Marathon, and the time required to build those takes quite a long time, and even more time to get them to the higher levels of evolution.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Theben
ORG can help early on also with REX, allowing you to secure more land earlier than you otherwise could with a non-ORG civ.

I don't think so. ORG doesn't have a significant effect until the later game, when civics costs are significant and inflation increases those costs further. FIN would help much more in the early game expansion.