anyone else think state property too powerful

[GreenReaper]

(i apologize if this has already been discussed, i searched for it and didnt find anything.)

i think SP either too powerful or corps are too weak.
there is really no drawback to state property...all the things you lose from no corporations you gain from the almost ridiculous amout of bonuses it has.

low maintenance, more hammers, more food. VS one measly trade route and having to expend huge amounts of time and research and great people into getting something that can be instantly wiped out by everyone adopting state property and getting all the bonuses for free that you just spent an insane amount of rescources getting.


IMHO there should be some sort of penalty. like less culture and research, which would also be more hisorically accurate. i think there should be a big reason not to do it instead of almost none at all. otherwise it is easily the best civic in the game and makes corps a curiosity instead of the incredibally powerful things they should be.

[Theben]

Uh, I think you've missed all the discussions on Sid Sushi on this board, not to mention other corps. Not being able to have active corps in your own cities is penalty enough.

[Quillan]

State Property probably was too powerful before BtS (or, as Blake used to put it, once you've gone commie you'll never go back!), but the loss of corps is a serious penalty. Proper use of corporations can make a HUGE difference.

[Hauptman]

State Property bonuses are progressive with city size. Corporation bonuses are instant once you secure the resources.

In my Corp guide, I discused comparing the two concepts. The bonuses from corps can be MUCH larger, but the bonuses from state property donot require invested labor/time.

I rarely use state property, but I did in my last game, went so far as to spam watermills everywhere possible, and windmills instead of mines so that I could workshop my farms. Wich in fact, showed there was some labor to do, but with workers not executives.

I didnt think it was good enough. So I switched back to environmentalism and spammed corps. On my newly conquered cities, Corps blew SP out of the water.

[Shalkai]

/agree Theben

SP is very powerful. Wonderful compared to Free Market w/o corporations. Plus, you usually get it 50-100 turns before you can get corps rolling. But I generally only use SP until I'm ready to found a corporation or two. Then its back to Free Market.

SP gives my average city ~ +2f and saves +6g in Maint, plus some hammers. All for free.

Corporations, though...I could see an argument that THOSE are too powerful. They're not free, though, and take lots of time to spread. Still, once you get rolling...
Average empire (assuming corps founded in Wall Street, and Free Market)? Sid's ~ +8f, +30c, +5g. CrCon ~ +6h, +24c, +5g. Jewelry ~ +18c, +10g. Total for all three? 8 food, 6 hammers, 72 culture, and 20 gold per turn, for a net cost of ~300h (build execs) and 300g (pay to found).
Each new city pays for the new corps in roughly 20 turns, and look at all that free culture!
Those numbers are conservative, by the way. Given a large empire, or lots of the right resources (example -CrCon in Highlands map) you can get 75-100cpt from a single corp!

Gimme two of those early enough, and I can conquer cities without firing a shot. 300-500 cpt will overwhelm just about anything but a capital WITH lots of wonders.

Environmentalism, now, could use some help. I can't remember the last time I've used THAT civic! Removing a few just isn't very important when all my (extra)people are gorging at Sid's Sushi. Which is probably why they are

[jkp1187]

Agree with...well, everyone here. SP was the strongest economy civic before Corporations. Now it's just powerful enough to keep you in the game if you CAN'T get any corporations, but corporations are still preferred. The only times I've gone SP is when I missed out on the "big 4" corporations: Mining, Creative Constructions, Sushi and Cereal Mills.

[Shalkai]

Oh, one more huge benefit to corporations. They make marginal cities very productive. Some piddly little arctic fishing port, or silver mining town, or city in the dreary plains, suddenly grows to be very productive when you give it +10 and +10

[Virulent]

I just like to add that I always liked the State Property/Corp mechanic in BtS.

It was a ingenious way to nerf State Property without actually nerfing State Property.

[Theben]

Originally posted by Shalkai

Environmentalism, now, could use some help. I can't remember the last time I've used THAT civic! Removing a few just isn't very important when all my (extra)people are gorging at Sid's Sushi. Which is probably why they are

The only thing I can think of would be to add coin for every forest or jungle in a city's BFC, maybe with a road in it. I know preserves do that, but it's not enough.

[wodan11]

Depending on the map and your strategy, the free trade routes are nothing to sneeze at, which is what's going on here. In addition, the advantages of SP, also, depend on the map an your strategy, and might be a minimal benefit.

Thus, even if you can't or don't want to get any corps, these are two very good reasons why FM might be a better choice than SP.

Mercantilism and Environmentalism, late game can be very strong, but IMO it's really a quite small set of conditions for each. But, even so, it's a true statement that they, too, can be your best choice depending on map and strategy.

Wodan

[jkp1187]

Originally posted by Virulent
I just like to add that I always liked the State Property/Corp mechanic in BtS.

It was a ingenious way to nerf State Property without actually nerfing State Property.

Agreed. They didn't nerf SP, they just made corporations more attractive. In most cases.

[Jvstin]

Originally posted by jkp1187
Agree with...well, everyone here. SP was the strongest economy civic before Corporations. Now it's just powerful enough to keep you in the game if you CAN'T get any corporations, but corporations are still preferred. The only times I've gone SP is when I missed out on the "big 4" corporations: Mining, Creative Constructions, Sushi and Cereal Mills.

And see, here, my practice with Corps is stunted because I am far too tempted by State Property.

My current game, I decided to specifically eschew State Property and live with it. I have CC running in its home city and a city of my vassal (Suleiman). My plans for corp dominance are a bit on hold, since Shaka (my main rival) and his three vassals just declared war on me (again!)...

[jkp1187]

Well, play it however you have the most fun. Certainly, SP is a perfectly viable civic. Heck, even in the pre-corp days I found myself running Free Market anyway more than 50% of the time, not because it was optimum, but because I rarely play spiritual civs, and I do so hate anarchy in the late game.

But do give the Mining + Sushi combo a try at least once. You'll be impressed at the synergy between those two.

[Jvstin]

Originally posted by jkp1187
Well, play it however you have the most fun. Certainly, SP is a perfectly viable civic. Heck, even in the pre-corp days I found myself running Free Market anyway more than 50% of the time, not because it was optimum, but because I rarely play spiritual civs, and I do so hate anarchy in the late game.

But do give the Mining + Sushi combo a try at least once. You'll be impressed at the synergy between those two.

In my current game, I have (three!) Corps running: Creative Constructions, Sid's Sushi and Civilized Jewelers. The city in which I founded all three is a financial monster! (I put Wall Street there of course)

[joncnunn]

I've had 4 Corporations in Wall Street before. Same list + AL inc.
That AL inc in addition to boosting science & gold directly also boosts Creative Constructions