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Stealth Destroyer: Upgrade or Downgrade?

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  • Stealth Destroyer: Upgrade or Downgrade?

    When a new unit replaces an old one, the expectation is that the new unit should be able to do almost everything either better than the unit it replaces or at least as well as the unit it replaces. If there are fairly common situations where the older unit is clearly better than the newer one, the natural expectation is that the two types of units should exist side by side instead of the new one rendering the old one obsolete. As best I can tell from my limited experience (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong), this principle is violated with the Stealth Destroyer. When players gain the ability to build stealth destroyers, they lose their ability to build conventional destroyers even though there are many situations where conventional destroyers are a lot more useful than stealth destroyers.

    Consider the different things that destroyers can be used for. Offhand, I can think of eight basic missions:

    1) Naval battles.
    2) Escort duty.
    3) Spotting submarines.
    4) Providing air defense.
    5) Guarding aquatic resources.
    6) Coastal bombardment.
    7) Pillaging enemy aquatic resources.
    8) Blockading.

    In the first mission - naval battles - the best units for the job are battleships and missile cruisers. Destroyers are useful mainly in two roles: attacking weaker ships in an enemy stack (especially transports and carriers) and forcing the enemy to fight through them before being able to attack a player's weaker ships (carriers, transports, and damaged battleships or missile cruisers). Stealth destroyers can play the same offensive role in naval battles that conventional destroyers can. But they cannot play the same defensive role unless their stealth ability is negated by an enemy stealth destroyer. So as a general rule, stealth destroyers are inferior to conventional destroyers for use in naval combat stacks.

    The second mission - escort duty - is a variant of the first in which the intent is that the warships be used only defensively, not offensively. If I understand correctly, stealth destroyers are completely useless for escort duty unless an enemy stealth destroyer negates their stealth. If an enemy doesn't see the stealth destroyers, he doesn't have to fight through them to attack weaker ships in the stack.

    The third and fourth missions - spotting submarines and air defense - are the only things that destroyers can be used for but that battleships and missile cruisers can't. For me, they are generally the only reasons I even think seriously about building destroyers after I gain the ability to build battleships. The stealth destroyer has a good air defense capability according to the Civilopedia, but doesn't seem to be able to see enemy submarines.

    Regarding the fifth mission, stealth destroyers seem to be completely useless for guarding resources against anything but other stealth destroyers. Other types of enemy ships don't see the stealth destroyers, and therefore are not affected by their presence. I normally prefer to use battleships and missile cruisers as my resource guardians because they are bigger and tougher than destroyers. But it's annoying not being able to use stealth destroyers to guard resources when I don't have bigger ships available.

    The last three missions are where stealth destroyers really shine - albeit with a catch. As long as stealth destroyers are in stacks by themselves, they can provide a way to to bombard, pillage, or blockade along the coast of a less advanced enemy with impunity. But if stealth destroyers are mixed with other types of ships, the presence of the stealth destroyers does not stop the enemy from doing nasty things to the other ships. As a result, a mixed stack used for bombardment, pillaging, or blockading can easily be worse off if it has stealth destroyers in it than if it had regular destroyers instead.

    In the real world, I would expect stealth destroyers to be able to operate in an unstealthy way and do all of the jobs that conventional destroyers can. The fact that they can turn off their radar and sonar and become virtually invisible doesn't mean that they have to keep their radar and sonar turned off. The fact that they are capable of hiding would not prevent them from interposing themselves between the enemy and a carrier, transport, or fishing fleet. If BtS had a way to turn stealth destroyers' stealth capabilities off and use them the same ways as regular destroyers, it would make perfect sense for the advent of stealth destroyers to render earlier destroyer designs obsolete.

    But when the mechanics of BtS are designed in such a way that there are several things that conventional destroyers can do that stealth destroyers either can't do at all or aren't as good at, it is really bad game design to make it impossible to build regular destroyers after stealth destroyers become available. The capabilities of the two types of destroyers dictate that even after stealth destroyers become available, navies should keep building regular destroyers if they want ships to serve roles that stealth destroyers either can't fill or aren't nearly as good at.

    [When I first posted this, I made a mistake regarding air defense, which I corrected in an edit.]
    Last edited by nbarclay; February 21, 2008, 22:57.

  • #2
    Regular destroyers upgrade to either stealth destroyers or to missile cruisers. I suspect the idea is that missile cruisers do all the conventional work. The anti-submarine role is really taken over by attack submarines by that point. Stealth destroyers replace submarines for operations in enemy waters.

    I assume stealth destroyers in a stack still do anti-air but it's really missile cruisers for your normal fleet operations.

    I will say I'm not entirely happy with stealth destroyers myself.
    Never give an AI an even break.

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    • #3
      Of course you have to need them at all, first. Sadly, many maps don't really warrant building a navy to speak of. I mean, after some defenders for coastal resources, and possibly a 10-15 Transport fleet for quick late game expansion via conquest, what else do you need? Especially since by the time you can get Stealth Destroyers, it's much more officient to use a small fleet with a bunch of Fighters/Bombers — those can move inland, if needed.
      Seriously. Kung freaking fu.

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      • #4
        Definitely not an upgrade. I keep my old Destroyers and only build a few SDs to detect other SDs. I have yet to see a SD shoot down an aircraft.
        And indeed there will be time To wonder, "Do I dare?" and, "Do I dare?". t s eliot

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        • #5
          There are two "invisible" classes: submarine & stealth. The "SeeInvisible" variable seems to allow only one entry, so no unit is allowed to see both.

          My solution has been to not allow destroyers to upgrade to anything. If you want stealth destroyers or missile cruisers, build them fresh.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Jaybe
            There are two "invisible" classes: submarine & stealth. The "SeeInvisible" variable seems to allow only one entry, so no unit is allowed to see both.

            My solution has been to not allow destroyers to upgrade to anything. If you want stealth destroyers or missile cruisers, build them fresh.
            i agree, i do the same.
            i also think being able to upgrade any type of destroyer to a cruiser is an error. 2 completely different class/mission types of ships - mutually exclusive.

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