Diplomatic victory or space race?

[Nohbody8]

In my current game, I am playing on Noble difficulty as Qin Shi Huang on a normal archipelago map with low water levels. I started on my own continent so this was the first game where I used diplomacy as I should have been using it for more years than I am afraid to admit. Because of this, I am on very good relations with Cyrus, Hatshepsut, and Ghandi. I assumed, incorrectly, that Tokugawa would be my main rival towards a diplomatic victory but it turned out to be Cyrus. Cyrus votes for himself, my other friends and I vote for me, and everyone else abstains.

At this point, I resigned myself to sitting back in my island fortress and going for a space race victory like I always do. An opportunity presented itself when, for some inexplicable reason, Caesar declared war on me also bringing down the combined might of Egypt AND Persia on him. Thanks to an aborted invasion of France and an ideally placed military production city, I was able to make short work of Caesar.

As a result of this war with Caesar, I find myself with a very strong position along some of Tokugawa's most heavily populated cities. The point of this long post is that I don't know enough about how the votes for the U.N. work to make a good decision about which path I should choose. I remember only needing sixty or so votes the last time. If I declare war on Tokugawa, will that push him to vote for Cyrus? If I can get Cyrus to go to war with Tokugawa, which is likely, will Tokugawa still abstain? Is a rebellious population still factored into how many votes I can cast? I am well on my way to completing the space race which would give me my first Noble victory. I have never gotten a diplomatic victory though, so any assistance towards this goal would be greatly appreciated.

[Nohbody8]

Forgot to mention that I don't think Tokugawa has access to tanks or planes while I have almost ten bombers and around twenty, maybe thirty, tanks and modern armors on his continent. He does have SAM infantry though. Anyone know how effective these tend to be against stealth bombers?

[UnOrthOdOx]

Re: Diplomatic victory or space race?

Originally posted by Nohbody8
If I declare war on Tokugawa, will that push him to vote for Cyrus?

Not neccessarily, but more likely.

If I can get Cyrus to go to war with Tokugawa, which is likely, will Tokugawa still abstain?

Yep.

Is a rebellious population still factored into how many votes I can cast?

good question.

I am well on my way to completing the space race which would give me my first Noble victory. I have never gotten a diplomatic victory though, so any assistance towards this goal would be greatly appreciated.

It's based on how well they like you compaired to your opponent. (hovering over their face in the diplo screen reveals all the modifiers to the left)

You basically want to look better than your main rival. So you should be focusing on Cyrus.

Getting everyone else to declare war on Cyrus, would then be the swiftest way to achieve this. If you can declare war on him, and can buy off all the others against him before the vote comes up, you should be a shoe in.

Plus, taking a couple of his cities would lessen his number of votes. And what you need is a percentage of the total votes.

But, sounds like you either have the votes, or will once the cities stop revolting. It would be usefull to get everyone to war on Tokugawa if everyone already hates him (ask them "what do you think about..." in the diplo screen), just to get the bonus of sharing the war.

[Blaupanzer]

On the diplo screen, if you left click on Tokugawa, you can instantly see how everyone feels about him. If you hover over the other leaders, you can see in detail how they feel about the selected leader. This is easier than going to each leader and asking them.

[UnOrthOdOx]

My computer doesn't like that screen for some reason. Always hangs up in there, so I quit using it and forgot about it.

It's usually fine in the others, but really doesn't like the diplo screen for some reason.

[Nohbody8]

Despite technically being my biggest competitor towards a diplomatic victory, I think Cyrus is also my biggest asset towards achieving one. He is my strongest ally and borders Tokugawa to the north. Assuming I can get him to attack Tokugawa, the Japanese will be fighting a two front war making it easier for me to capture the much more populated south. I'm just really worried about those SAM infantry blowing my stealth bombers out of the sky. How bad do nukes affect your relations with allies and the U.N. vote?

[UnOrthOdOx]

Do not nuke.

I wouldn't be overly worried about your bombers. But you might want more of em.

[Blaupanzer]

Units die in war. It's part of the process to constantly reproduce your invading army while at war. If fewer units die, the army grows, if more die, consider the technology levels of the rival. Stealth aircraft are the response to the AA capabilities of the SAM units. Just go for it!

[Quillan]

I do not know if revolting cities count in the total number of votes, but a few things I can tell you:

The total number of votes is the total of the population level of all cities.

Each civ has a number of votes equal to the total population of all their own cities.

Passage of a resolution requires a certain percentage of of total number of votes, with diplomatic victory requiring a higher percentage than the normal resolutions.

The two candidates for diplomatic victory are the same as the two candidates for secretary general: the owner of the UN wonder and the civilization with the highest total population other than the UN owner.

So, you want to achieve a diplomatic victory in the circumstances you mentioned? Make people like you more than they like Cyrus. Increase your total population or decrease Cyrus' total population. The second option once led to a thread here titled "Diplomatic victory through global thermonuclear war" which was rather humorous, although I don't think it works now; there's a negative diplomatic modifier for using nukes. Assuming you're playing BtS, you could try using privateers to blockade his coastal cities, and starve them down some.

[UnOrthOdOx]

No, it would still work (nukes), in that it's a swift way to really lower your neighbors populations giving you enough votes that yours is the only one to matter. Just have to realize NO ONE else is going to be voting for you once you launch.

[wardhali]

just make sure you have enough nukes...

[Nohbody8]

At this point, I am definitely leaning towards a non-nuclear invasion of Japan. Depending on how many units I have when that's done with, I may push on into Persia just to knock Cyrus' population down some.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Nohbody8
At this point, I am definitely leaning towards a non-nuclear invasion of Japan.

But taht would claim a million American lives and prolong the war for... oh wait wrong subforum.

[Nohbody8]

I already have a beachhead though. No amphibuous assault required.

[Shalkai]

Invade Tokugawa.

Stealth Bombers have a chance to evade interception, and that includes interception by either ground or air missiles (i.e. SAM Inf.). Plus, even if a bomber is unlucky enough to get caught, it will practically always survive. Send 'em in.

SAM Infantry doesn't do too well against Modern Armor.

When you own Tokugawa's cities in 10-12 turns, then his people will definitely vote for you.