espionage strategy

[hart276]

you make the scotland yard in your best city. with cranked up espionage this should give you more than the 12 points settling him in a city as a super specialist would.
With pangea and huge world size you should get a decent mix of techers and war mongers to steal from. With any luck your near the center of everyone so it would not cost extra for espionage.
I didnt know gilgamesh gave you spy specialists with priesthood.. I thought it was just a fast build courthouse. This could allow you to get the 1st great spy even faster.
As for getting techs 1st before the AI, I am talking about playing at a handicap here so that probably wont happen very often even if you play normally. Though it would be nice to get the free great spy with communism (not to mention the spy buildings).
Hi Supr49er.
I had thought the amount of credits you get from using a Great spy in rival territory would very depending on how far in the game you are like great merchants do. Making a Scotland yard prepares you not only for what techs people already have, but the ones they are going to get. Its hard to say who will get what first.

[LDiCesare]

What do you mean "afterwards it pays less"?

In my current game, my inital great spy allowed me to steal something like 5 techs from Hannibal. Compare this to an early great person lightbulbing one miserable tech. Mind you, the last tech I stole was Guilds, so we're not talking about Fishing here.
Later in the game, your opponents will have spent points on espionage, so in order to steal one tech, you may have to invest in 2 great spies, or simply to crank up your spy spendings a lot, which means you will start lagging in tech. It's better to steal techs early. Later on, it becomes too expensive, whereas poisoning cities or researching are still as efficient as they used to be.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by hart276
I didnt know gilgamesh gave you spy specialists with priesthood.. I thought it was just a fast build courthouse.

I had thought the amount of credits you get from using a Great spy in rival territory would very depending on how far in the game you are like great merchants do.

Anybody know the answers to these two questions? I, too, thought it was a fast-build courthouse (which is EP, which I thought the OP meant). For the second, I would be surprised if the EP from a great spy varied as you suggest. But maybe. Anyone know?

Making a Scotland yard prepares you not only for what techs people already have, but the ones they are going to get. Its hard to say who will get what first.

Maybe. Personally I think the value of getting all your early techs in one fell swoop is too huge to pass up.

Wodan

[Krill]

First of all, Gilgamesh gets the courthouses (Ziggarut sp?) which allow you to run a spy specialist. The amount of beakers/gold/EP you get from teh appropriate specialist doesn;t vary from how far into a game you are, but how much population you (or your team, don't know how Vassls affect it) have.

[LzPrst]

hmmm. I just tried this out with Sumeria. When I had Alphabet and Priesthood I went all spy points. I also got the GW and with it a Great Spy whom I used to build the Scotland Yard with. Unfortunately the tech leader was Pericles, far away from me. If there ever was a good opportunity for this strategy to work it was this game. But apparently, being on the bottom of the power graph negates any friendliness you may have with other civs and so I was eventually crushed by Pericles who wandered far and wide through Ethiopia to take me down. My small army of Vultures had no chance. Zara then joined the gangbang and it was all over.

I made a few conclusions. Don't neglect your military regardless of tactic.
Focus on one civ to steal from.
If your neighbours are idiots, you're screwed.
Happiness is an issue.



There seems to be a minor problem with this strategy. Mainly that if the civ you're stealing from doesn't have what you need, you're not getting it. Which is kinda annoying. Oh well. If anyone wants to give it a go here is the original save. And yes, there's Stone nearby so you can easily get the GW. And lots of Forests around the Capital to chop. Good Luck!

[wodan11]

I think you probably went all EP too early. If you wait until you have Engineering that might be a better choice.

Wodan

[LzPrst]

you're probably right Wodan. I suspect I overfocused too early and because of it lost some important stuff that I should have had. took me ages to steal Iron Working even. would have been much better to just research it.


Btw. here's the settings.
Large Big and Small map (yeah, got snaky continent or something. not ideal)
Monarch diff
Aggressive AI (also a bad choice, but I can't play without it anymore)
No Tech Brokering

[wodan11]

The way the EE really works best as I understand is using 1-2 early great spies to bomb EP and stealing the entire ancient era, pretty much. Meanwhile you don't change the sliders from normal. In fact, running a SE is best.

Later on, you continue your SE, but you run spies instead of scientists or whatever. Take a look at the numbers of EP (plus the oddball beakers) you'll get for running spies. Also, take a look at the sheer number of spies you can run in a city without running caste system. Plus all the free EP and EP modifiers, mid and late game you are rolling in the EP, all without even touching the slider.

Since you're running a SE, the slider can be used early game to fuel research, and late game for happiness to run huge cities.

I recall seeing discussion of an espionage CE, but don't recall the particulars. My general impression is that it isn't as powerful as an espionage SE, for the primary reason that spy specialists provide more EP bang for the buck, plus that you can run LOTS of spies without caste.

Anyway as I mentioned I've done it a couple of times but nowhere consider myself anything approaching an expert. So take my thoughts with a grain of salt. Anyway don't give up on it yet... even if it may not be as powerful as your favorite CE or SE or whatever, it's fun variety.

Wodan

[hart276]

Aggressive AI probably isnt the best for any handicapped game. You said you used big and small. I use pangia because it gives you more potential guys to steal from. Maybe you didnt spam cottages for money in one city for this to work well.. I usually have to put a cottage or two in all of my cities before i begin gearing them for production or commerce. I dont think gilgamesh is a financial leader which I have always used when trying this. (Personnaly I believe that when handicapped you have to be really good with money or a war monger.)I always got barracks in most if not all of my cities and talked in this section about the rival aspect of this strategy. If you get 3 or so archers with 5 experience points in each city and walls you should be alright until they discover siege. Dont forget to build cities on hills if you can. It may actually be a bad thing to found a religeon because you are handicapped at spreading it so not many will have it. Go for their favorite civics when you can, and declare war on weak players when they ask you to that probably wont last the entire game anyways. Its negative 3 relations with that leader ( that probably wont last anyways) and plus four with relations that are war with them (our mutual military struggle brings our people closer together), even if you dont send any units.
"Later on, you continue your SE, but you run spies instead of scientists or whatever. Take a look at the numbers of EP (plus the oddball beakers) you'll get for running spies. Also, take a look at the sheer number of spies you can run in a city without running caste system. Plus all the free EP and EP modifiers, mid and late game you are rolling in the EP, all without even touching the slider."
I believe caste system gives you the ability for unlimited merchants, scientists, and artists. Not spies. Spies with representation government would definately be nice even if you arent heavy on tech. I actually run caste system just for the production bonus on workshops. I really need it cuz of the handicap. What do you guys run? Do you like the anarchy their spies can give your cities with slavery? Or are you too cheap to make workers so you get serfdom?
As for running a specialist economy with spies... A cottage which is only the second growth of a hamlet gives you 2 food and 3 gold for espionage vs 4 espionage and great spy points. Of course if you have the cottage by a river its four gold and it only takes like 30 turns to grow it.

[hart276]

Unfortunately the good save file I have for this strategy is like 530 kb. Just over the limit. I have this Hammurabi save thats 1021 kb. Huge world size with 16 players seems to take a lot of space for some reason.

[LDiCesare]

The way the EE really works best as I understand is using 1-2 early great spies to bomb EP and stealing the entire ancient era, pretty much. Meanwhile you don't change the sliders from normal. In fact, running a SE is best.

I totally agree.

This way, you still research, but you can beeline and use your neighbours to fill the gaps by stealing. Later in the game, I think spying is less efficient than regular research.

The problem is that ideally you want to steal from a neighbour, as it will cost less EPs. So you want one of your neighbours to have techs you don't have, which means you'll probably be attacking another one in order to let your spying target keep a good research.

In my current game (monarch, map had two continents which are very close, agressive ai, no tech brokering), it kind of backfires as Hannibal, who "gave" me lots of techs, has grown out of control (I couldn't expand much and didn't fight his way, so he' now huge).

[wodan11]

Some questions if you don't mind....

Originally posted by hart276
Aggressive AI probably isnt the best for any handicapped game.

What makes an EE a "handicapped game"?

You said you used big and small. I use pangia because it gives you more potential guys to steal from.

Seems to me there are pros and cons. There's nothing wrong with using caravels to transport your spies.

Maybe you didnt spam cottages for money in one city for this to work well.

This is a good point and actually it's a very good idea in ANY specialist economy. Having a "money" city with all cottages and where you can crank the gold slider as needed.

I usually have to put a cottage or two in all of my cities before i begin gearing them for production or commerce.

I don't agree with this at all. Seems self-defeating to me, and it contradicts your "money" city suggestion as well. To each his own, I guess.

Dont forget to build cities on hills if you can.

Why?

It may actually be a bad thing to found a religeon because you are handicapped at spreading it so not many will have it.

Why will you be handicapped at spreading?

Go for their favorite civics when you can, and declare war on weak players when they ask you to that probably wont last the entire game anyways.

You're talking about your "target" civ... the one civ you target for most of your stealing, correct?

Its negative 3 relations with that leader ( that probably wont last anyways) and plus four with relations that are war with them (our mutual military struggle brings our people closer together)

Actually that number varies. The longer you are at war the more negative and the more positive you get with the two civs, respectively.

I believe caste system gives you the ability for unlimited merchants, scientists, and artists. Not spies.

Correct.

Spies with representation government would definately be nice even if you arent heavy on tech.

Agreed... that's what I suggested.

I actually run caste system just for the production bonus on workshops. I really need it cuz of the handicap.

Again, what handicap?

What do you guys run? Do you like the anarchy their spies can give your cities with slavery? Or are you too cheap to make workers so you get serfdom?

It totally depends. The point is that a EE can be flexible here and has complete choice. There are benefits on all sides, just pick the one that makes the most sense.

As for running a specialist economy with spies... A cottage which is only the second growth of a hamlet gives you 2 food and 3 gold for espionage vs 4 espionage and great spy points.

You mean "commerce" not "gold", correct?

Not sure your point here.

Originally posted by LDiCesare
Later in the game, I think spying is less efficient than regular research.

Why?

I think it's more efficient than regular research, because of the modifiers.

A city may have library, university, and observatory, for +75% to research.

Meanwhile, the same city could have courthouse, jail, intelligence agency, and security bureau for +100% +22 espionage. And, if you're running a SE, you can spam Scotland Yard to change it to +200%.

So, with the former, 100 commerce changes to 175 research. With the latter, 100 commerce changes to 244 espionage (366 with scotland yard).

The only question there is whether spending EP to get techs costs more or less in pure # of points, than spending beakers costs to earn that same tech. I don't have the formula right here but I remember seeing it posted and that it actually costs less.

The problem is that ideally you want to steal from a neighbour, as it will cost less EPs. So you want one of your neighbours to have techs you don't have, which means you'll probably be attacking another one in order to let your spying target keep a good research.

Either live with that, or attack a more remote enemy (use Versailles or FP, or State Property), or simply suck it up and pay a little more. (In addition, it's not necessarily more... a tasty espionage target could simply be across a narrow waterway. It's on another continent, so unless you're running SP or plan to vassal them, you wouldn't want to conquer them anyway.)

Wodan

[LzPrst]

I haven't done any number crunching, but early game teching is far more efficient than spying. later on that may change... I'll have to try it out. last time I only got as far as the ancient age before I got wiped out. I seem to have forgotten how to do military again. oh well. I'll show them!

[LDiCesare]

The only question there is whether spending EP to get techs costs more or less in pure # of points, than spending beakers costs to earn that same tech. I don't have the formula right here but I remember seeing it posted and that it actually costs less.

No.
This is an important point, but there are other factors.
1) Risk. You do not have 100% chance of success stealing a tech. The more EP your opponent has, the more buildings he's got, the more likely you are to have to rebuild spies to steal the tech, which means hammers need to be spent.
A side effect of the risk is that you get delayed when you miss your mission. If you stay for long in a city to decrease the cost of spying, you increase both the delay in gaining the tech and the likelihood of wasting hammers.
2) The more EPs your opponent has, the less you have, the most expensive the stealing. At equal number of EPs, you pay 100%. Early on, you're likely to pay only 66% of the price and stay there. Late game, you have to maintain a big lead in EPs in order not to fall below 100%.
3) You can't pick your next tech or benefit from the fact you arethe first one to discover the tech (liberalism, physics and other first get a bonus techs...)
4) You have to lag in tech.

Although it's very late game, I'd like to point out you forgot the laboratory improvement which gives +25% research for a total of +100%. And you may use Great Scientists for +50% the same way you can use Great Spies for Scotland Yard.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by LDiCesare

No.
This is an important point, but there are other factors.
1) Risk. You do not have 100% chance of success stealing a tech. The more EP your opponent has, the more buildings he's got, the more likely you are to have to rebuild spies to steal the tech, which means hammers need to be spent.
A side effect of the risk is that you get delayed when you miss your mission. If you stay for long in a city to decrease the cost of spying, you increase both the delay in gaining the tech and the likelihood of wasting hammers.

All true. However, if you're running an EE then you have oodles of EP. In fact, when I played I ran out of techs to steal, which let me build up a huge balance. So, seems like some of your concerns are hypothetical rather than realistic, not in practice anyway. Secondly, the hammer cost of lost spies is not zero, but it's not a huge issue as you portend.

2) The more EPs your opponent has, the less you have, the most expensive the stealing. At equal number of EPs, you pay 100%. Early on, you're likely to pay only 66% of the price and stay there. Late game, you have to maintain a big lead in EPs in order not to fall below 100%.

See above. Regardless, even if 100% it's still easier to get than the same # of beakers.

3) You can't pick your next tech or benefit from the fact you are the first one to discover the tech (liberalism, physics and other first get a bonus techs...)

When running an espionage CE, you may be correct. When running an espionage SE, you are not. With spies you still get research, a significant amount actually. Think about it this way: a "normal" SE runs scientists and gets +6 each, while an espionage SE runs spies and gets +4 each. So, you're running at 67% of the research of a "Normal" SE plus all the stolen techs on top of that.

So, spend that research on Liberalism, Physics, etc, whatever floats your boat, and steal the other techs like Artillery, etc.

4) You have to lag in tech.

See above.

Although it's very late game, I'd like to point out you forgot the laboratory improvement which gives +25% research for a total of +100%. And you may use Great Scientists for +50% the same way you can use Great Spies for Scotland Yard.

Sorry about that; you're correct. However, you still don't get the +22. (Which is +44 with the 100%.)

Wodan