tricking the AI into now attacking me?

[guermantes]

Hi again, a little diplomacy question this time.

I was quite proud of myself on this my first try at Prince with BTS. Playing the cards/civ I was dealt by the random generator I managed to get to top position in all but army (we are around gunpowder). Troop-wise, I am just a little behind Justinian who is overall number 2 on the continent.

And while thinking I was a cool bloke at Prince Justianian goes and declares war on me. I think I can play this war defensively and fend him off until we can make peace. The only this that bothers me is that while I have no border contact with his empire, he is best buddies with Mehmet II and Isabella (they share Judaism, I am alone with Hinduism). I am pushing borders with both Mehmet and Isabella and they both dislike/hate me (even though I fought a war with Mehmet against Boudy when he asked me to!). So I am expecting that they will join in the war to pick up some spoils.

Therefore I am wondering if I can trick them into not being able to attack me for 10 turns (the new BTS diplomacy rule) if I gift them a tech or resource that they accept?

Or are they free to attack me as long as they do not initiate any diplomatic moves but only respond to mine?

[Swiss Pauli]

No, gifts don't work, only demands/requests.

[wodan11]

Gifts won't FORCE them to not be able to DOW you, but they may improve your relations with them by having active trades as well as positive dip modifiers.

Wodan

[joncnunn]

If they haven't already decidied to go to war with you:
1. Build more miltary units.
2. Upgrade the ones you have.
3. Build more City Walls / Castles [if not expired; this also might not work post Gunpowder depending upon how they coded this, but it is known that at least pre Gunpowder both increase your strength calculation.
In any case, #1 thru #3 will increase your odds of a successful war if it didn't work and you have war declared upon you.

note that the trades and gifts will also only work if they haven't already made the decision to go to war with you. And if they have made that decision, they aren't going to demand/request.

[wodan11]

Barracks, also, joncnunn, affect the Power graph (not just walls and castles).

Wodan

[guermantes]

Walls and castles in order to improve the power graph calculation is a good tip. Thanks in particular for that one!

Although, how is the 'bonus' calculated. Is it the total number of walls and castles that together modify my power rating, or is it the units stationed inside walls/castles that 'get' the bonus. I.e., would walls and castles still affect my power rating if all my units were out in the field?

As for the war, I played 4 turns of the war and as I hoped I was able to catapult Justinian's stack and then take it out with my units in an offensive before he sent his cats to do barrage on me. I lost 4 units + 5 cats for 20 of his which I am pretty satisfied with. Need new catapults now though. Still no one else in the war. I am (probably) first to gunpowder in 2 turns so hopefully I have a few turns to whip some muskets before the next wave arrives....

As I write this I realise that what happened was that Justinian made a demand for tribute->I refused->the next turn he switched to vassalage and the turn after that he declared war on me! So this means that the AI is not bound by the rules that bind the human player!! I can't demand tribute and then declare war if I don't get it.

Shouldn't the AI be bound by the same rules?

[KMadeleine]

if you request help from a friend (they're pleased or friendly with you), or make a demand (they're cautious or lower toward you), and they say yes, then they are bound by the same rules as you are, an automatic 10-turn peace treaty. if they say no, then no peace treaty starts. that's what happened in your case - because you refused Justinian's demand, he was free to attack at any time. if you had given in to his demand, then he would have had to wait 10 turns.

if your relationship with them is pleased/friendly, you don't earn a diplomatic negative for asking for help (money, tech, world map, or any combo of those). if they're at cautious or lower, it counts as a demand and you get a negative modifier, even if they say yes. by trying that, you get a chance at 10 years of peace now at the cost of increasing the chances of an eventual DoW. also, i think (but can't swear to it) that demands you make are an additional factor in the AI's "should i declare war on the human" calculation, over and above the "my power vs human power" and "my attitude toward the human" etc factors. so if my memory is right there, that's an increase in the chance of a DoW in two ways.

i did that once when i was pretty sure Mehmed was going to DoW me. i'd planted a city right up on his border, which was a different continent than my core empire. i was very very ultra-weak on power, so if i was him i'd have declared war on me. but he was pleased with me, so i asked him to spare his world map for a friend, at no risk to me since it didn't count as a demand. he said yes (he valued it only at 25ish gold, we'd traded maps before). i used the 10 turns to get some troops over to that city. pretty cheesy eh?

Originally posted by joncnunn
note that the trades and gifts will also only work if they haven't already made the decision to go to war with you. And if they have made that decision, they aren't going to demand/request.

really? the OP said that Justinian made a demand which he refused, and then declared war 2 turns later. afaik the AI takes longer to declare after a decision than 2 turns. disclaimer: i am not a programmer and i don't read code, i'm just going by what i've experienced (watching the WHEOOHRN in diplo screen, trying to figure out who they'll attack, seeing how long it takes them to get around to it). so it's entirely possible that you know much more about that than i do, and if i'm missing some info i just want to learn about it is all.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by guermantes
I can't demand tribute and then declare war if I don't get it.

Why can't you do that?

Wodan

[guermantes]

Originally posted by wodan11

Why can't you do that?

I thought I couldn't, but I now understand that it is only if they accept my demand/trade suggestion that I cannot declare.

[patcon]

I understand why the demander/requester can't declare war if the demandee/requestee acquiesces. It is an exploit I used to use all the time with weak civs. "Give me all your gold, techs, and throw in a virgin daughter or I'll crush you like a worm." "OK, take everything, but please don't hurt us." "Thanks. One thing though, I lied." (I always imagined myself saying that like Arnold Schwarzeneger saying it to Sully in the movie Commando.

It seems odd that giving in to a demand or request means you can't declare war. "Gimme all your money!" "OK, but you better watch your back because the minute you let your guard down, you're mine." Wait, this is cIV, "OK, and you don't have to worry about me for a while now."

[joncnunn]

This sounds like the decision to declare war was made immedately after the demand was refused.

As for the time it takes, that is heavilly depedent upon how close the nearest unit the AI had to his border was.
I have had a non-adjoining AI do the declaration the same turn as the decision because he had ROP with the neighbor between us and a single warrior that was scouting that neighbor close enough to get into my territory the same turn. It's real army took 5 turns to arrive.

Originally posted by KMadeleine

really? the OP said that Justinian made a demand which he refused, and then declared war 2 turns later. afaik the AI takes longer to declare after a decision than 2 turns. disclaimer: i am not a programmer and i don't read code, i'm just going by what i've experienced (watching the WHEOOHRN in diplo screen, trying to figure out who they'll attack, seeing how long it takes them to get around to it). so it's entirely possible that you know much more about that than i do, and if i'm missing some info i just want to learn about it is all.

[guermantes]

Does anyone know the answer to what I asked above?

Is it the wall/castles themselves that give the bonus to the power graph, or do I need to have units inside the city in question to get the bonus to the power graph (and thus get more bonus the more units I stack inside that city)?

[joncnunn]

I would guess the former because existing units can always be moved.

Originally posted by guermantes
Does anyone know the answer to what I asked above?

Is it the wall/castles themselves that give the bonus to the power graph, or do I need to have units inside the city in question to get the bonus to the power graph (and thus get more bonus the more units I stack inside that city)?

[KMadeleine]

it's all quite bizarre. you can actually have no troops at all, but still show as having the most soldiers - according to the demographics screen. however, the demographics screen is different from the power graph. the numbers that the demographics screen uses are explained here.

some quick examples about how demographics add stuff up:
some buildings and wonders do count. in Vanilla, each castle you built counted as 2000 soldiers. in Warlords and BtS, castles don't contribute to your power rating in that way at all; walls do, they count as 2000 soldiers each. for every 2 population points you have, you get credit for 1000 soldiers. for some techs you get credit (2000 soldies for hunting) but for others you get none (military tradition for instance ).

and finally, the one you've all been waiting for:
a tank counts as 25,000 soldiers.
a spearman counts as 2,000 soldiers.

but the power graph is not a direct graphical representation of the demographics screen. (neither is the population statistic on the F8 victory conditions screen, but that's a whole nuther story). the difference as far as power graph vs. soldier calcuation in demographics kinda goes over my head.

my guess is that it wouldn't depend on how many of your troops are in which city. i'd think it would be based on troops overall, somewhat on the bizarre "soldiers" count in demographics, and partly on the "how close are you as my neighbor" factor. but i'm just throwing guesses out there and i'm certainly no expert.

[wodan11]

Simply having a wall, barracks, or castle gives you a boost on the power graph. It has nothing to do with where or how many units you have.

Units, also, give their own boost to the power graph, but that, too, has nothing to do with where they are.

Wodan