Born on the wrong continent

[couerdelion]

When it comes to assessing your tech speed there are two basic comparisons that you might use. First, you have already a general idea of “where you should be” at any point in time. Not a hard and fast rule but if you tend to get Constitution by 1500 AD, or Mathematics by 500 BC then you at least have a guide to go by.

Second, your know something about your rivals once you, or they, get Alphabet. And since it is your position relative to your neighbours that is crucial, it is no surprise that people rarely delay Alphabet for long.

I assume, if my play is anything to go by, that most people discover Alphabet and find that other civs are comfortably ahead in the tech race. Early bonuses give the AI a big headstart so this is no surprise. But by this stage your rate of teching has increased and you should be matching or beating your rivals over a longer period.

In a lot of games, this is where it ends but with a few maps, there is another large gap in your knowledge which is only opened when you get to discover other continents. Before then you will only know how many nations are out there and may be able to guess what type. But until you meet them you will have little idea of their tech position and can only assume that they are following somewhere around the level that your more local rivals.

So I was rather unnerved in my latest game – sharing a 9 civ map with 4 other civs. Maybe they were grabbing most of the wonders and religions but that could be explained by Isabelle being among that group along with some Industrious civ like Louis or Capac. Besides, you’ve built Hanging Gardens and Great Library so they can’t be too far ahead. Taoism being collected in 200 AD is also not too serious if it can be explained by a Great Scientist lightbulb.

Roll onto around 900-1000 AD and I’m happy researching Machinery when up pops Alexander. A few turns later it is Augustus who comes sailing along. By the time I get Machinery, I can see the tech deficit to be at least

Construction
Music
Theology
Philosophy (Greeks only)
Compass
Optics (obviously)
Engineering
Feudalism.

Here’s me thinking I was building up a tidy lead and I am given a serious shock.

By 1370 AD I think I might have made up the ground although this has required a GS lightbulb (Education) along the direct route to Liberalism to take Nationalism and then grab the Taj for a Golden Age. I was quite lucky to pop a GE two turns after starting to build the wonder since the lack of any marble made it a potential gamble.

It seems that they must have been teching quickly but I don’t recall ever having to overcome that level of tech deficit after optics.

[The Priest]

A nasty surprise, I agree, and one I have suffered occasionally.

Its a good sign though, since it shows that in Civ you can get the sort of situation you got for real in which there were all sorts of developed civilisations in the Americas when Europeans contacted them, but in tech terms they were far behind. The civs on each continent were roughly in step with each other, but the two continents badly out of step.

I wonder how it happens in game mechanics. Is it just about tech trade tending to level things off or is there something more? Perhaps:
1. Does the AI see where is it up to against its neighbours and set its science rate accordingly?
2. The bonuses for researching what other people have already researched - do they only count civs you are in contact with?

[wodan11]

Humans tend to war early and to encourage wars on their continent. Also, humans tend to whip, which retards early research.

There could also be serendipitous things such as only one religion was founded on the other continent. That will drastically reduce wars.

So, if there were no wars, and one religion, and pacifistic civs over there, then yeah they're going to tech really fast.

Wodan

[Krill]

Humans tend to war early and to encourage wars on their continent. Also, humans tend to whip, which retards early research.

Not necessarily. Whipping a library in a city can lead to a net increase in, for example.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by Krill

Humans tend to war early and to encourage wars on their continent. Also, humans tend to whip, which retards early research.

Not necessarily. Whipping a library in a city can lead to a net increase in, for example.

Depends on what you call "early", depends on whipping minimally rather than repeatedly (which is what humans tend to do), depends on not whipping things that don't contribute to research, and depends on whether the Library could have been built normally in less time than it takes to regrow the whip (taking lost commerce in the interim into account).

As a general rule, whipping retards research.

(That's not to say that you can't contrive a situation where you can use the whip to improve research.)

Wodan

[snoopy369]

Whipping retards research in the extremely short run. It enhances it to the extent that you use it to grow/build additional cities/build commerce or growth infrastructure in even the medium run (10-20 turns).

Most whips should be done when you are beyond your (happy/health) cap - so you're generally whipping useless pop and gaining the ability to quickly regenerate said pop. I suspect whipping aids early (< AD 1, or 1000 BC, or even 2000 BC) research.

[wodan11]

Primarily whipping retards research because you're working farms and food resources instead of cottages.

Secondly, most whipping is done at small city size. So, the city isn't growing, and that means you're working fewer tiles, probably none of which are cottages. (Or, you aren't running any scientists for your SE, same thing.) This also means you are staying small instead of getting to max city size.

Whipping using overflow when at max size is probably the only whipping which is purely a positive.

Wodan

[snoopy369]

Perhaps you have a dramatically different theory to whipping than I do.

For me, whipping occurs at a large city size. While you might have a city that whips for most of its hammers, most of the time whipping is done in order to use up excess population - ie, happy cap 5, i'm at 6, let's dump two pop and get some hammers for them.

You certainly can have a whipping economy that primarily whips, but it's never efficient to do so at low population. A whipping centric economy will do so at 4-5 pop also - because that's where you get enough food to grow quickly. If you can't grow back the 2 pop in 10 turns, what's the point of doing it?

[wodan11]

Originally posted by snoopy369
it's never efficient to do so at low population.

Oh come on Snoopy.

Whipping is most efficient at low population, because it is dramatically cheaper (in terms of food) to regrow.

The cost of "1 pop" is different depending on city size.

Wodan

[wodan11]

Originally posted by snoopy369
If you can't grow back the 2 pop in 10 turns, what's the point of doing it?

Because it's "free food" that otherwise would simply feed unhappy citizens when you're at the happy cap.

Wodan

[Krill]

Size 4-6 is a low pop base though, any lower and you can only whip for 1 pop, and you lower your happy cap for 1 pop, so whipping is kind of counterproductive unless you need those hammers for units to stay alive, or you are slaving a worker to improve your land while you grow, or you are getting a happy improvement that will raise you happy cap by atleast +1, or maybe you slaved out the grnary to speed growth in a low growth city.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by Krill
so whipping is kind of counterproductive

That's exactly my point.

I think people are "in the habit" of whipping and take it for granted that it's always a good idea. And, they don't think about all those cottages they could be working.

Wodan

[Krill]

Whipping for 1 pop is not always counter productive, ie whipping a new city@size 2 for a worker (in the early game, which was my point.

[LzPrst]

are you playing with Aggressive AI? that tends to slow down their teching a bit since they'll be killing eachother more. otherwise I tend to see other continents band together under one religion and turn out to be a real hassle. also, I tend to check no tech brokering. if not it just runs wild.

[couerdelion]

To answer a few questions, all but one of the religions were on the other continent (Incas, Aztecs, Augustus, Alexander). None of them particularly religious though Monty tends to go for Buddhism and the Romans seem to like Code of Laws.

No they weren’t all that friendly either and hardly the most peaceful bunch. Also not a lot special going for them in the way of starting resources. So it’s a little confusing really how it was that Mao had no wars, and shared a religion with all of us on the continent, yet still lost to me in the land grab and managed to tech way below the level of the other continent.

On the whipping point, any which fails to improve tech in the long run is counter-productive in my book. You whip in key infrastructure or units so that you can improve your overall output. While it might appear rather hammer-centric it should, over the long run improve you overall science output.