Why always the sinking!

[Solomwi]

Originally posted by joncnunn
First shot matters a lot in naval battles.
If you want to win naval battles, go with Drill X promotions.

Jon, if you'd be so kind as to elaborate, I'm interested in your thoughts on why this is. Also, are you saying first strikes matter more in individual naval battles than land battles, given the same comparative unit strengths in each, that they matter more in a 2 on 1 (or comparable) situation, by leaving the surviving unit less damaged for the enemy's follow-up attack, or something else entirely? If it's the second, I understand your stance, but if it's the first I'm a bit puzzled.

[Cheeris]

First of all, first post here on Apolyton, so hello to everyone!

Been looking at the boards for a while now for tips but never really felt like contributing before until now, so here goes.

I've been annoyed at the extreme defender's advantage in naval battles too, as I always build as big a navy as I can manage. It's doubley annoying as in a real world naval battle the attacking ship(s) would generally enjoy the advantage!

However, I find there is two things you can do, tactically speaking. Firstly build naval units as early as possible so they have a chance to pick up plenty of XP for promotions. By the time you get Destroyers you should have a reasonably experienced navy, just when you need it!

Secondly, if the game favours defending naval units so much then just defend! If you want to take out an enemy vessel then just pull alongside without attacking and end the turn. The AI will attack on its turn and almost certainly lose! Leaving your battered but more experienced unit in command of the high seas!

Of course, this only works in a one on one situation...

[Supr49er]

Welcome to the forum Cheeris.

You can build privateers, kill galleys/triremes/caravels to get 10XP - upgrade to destroyers. I still like the drill line for my navy.

[Yaga]

From an historical perspective, conclusive naval battles have been relatively rare. Yes, there are exceptions, but disengagement or surrender were the more likely outcomes of naval warfare through the early 20th century. Ships were too large an investment to continually fight to the last, the environment was a significant factor, and the means of attack -- whether cannon or man to man fighting -- had relatively limited ammunition between engagements (returning to port for more shot / sailors)

More likely was the long, drawn out campaign of trading blows until at last one ship had nowhere left to run (at which point they would likely surrender or scuttle), or the aggressor would be forced to break off pursuit -- either due to losing track of the unit, running low on supplies, or having to stop for their own repairs, etc.

I can think of a fairly easy way to mirror this in-game, by upping the retreat percentages.

All ships, should they suddenly find themselves in bad sorts, can try to turn an run. If they're hurting a lot, they likely don't even have the means to try to carry on fighting, let alone winning (to say nothing of remaining buoyant) , and would try to scamper.

In in-game terms, as soon as an attacker took a hit dropping them below some very high percent of their total -- say 50% -- they would retreat. A lovely mechanic would be to allow their attempt to be successful based on a percentage roll to beat the % of the defender's total. For merchant-type ships the turn-tail percentage would be even higher -- say 85% -- to help reflect the difference in crew training. Promotions might even *lower* the retreat percentage -- greenhorns run as soon as they're bloodied, while hard-nosed crews will press to the last advantage.

But the main affect is that single ship vs single ship combat would *only* be conclusive (resulting in unit loss) when one side had a clear advantage. It would also reinforce the value of larger fleets. -- i.e., that they're mutually protective, rather than "I hope I have one left at the end of it."


...As a complete aside, ships in port when a city is taken should have a % chance of being captured, just as ships as sea when a civ is destroyed should have a % chance of turning into barbarian privateers.

Speaking of which, why aren't there more barbarian privateers? It's not like Firaxis is short on models of pirate ships

[jkp1187]

Yaga,

I think your idea could easily be implemented just with giving each ship a chance to withdraw by default (say, 10%-20%), which could then be increased with promotions as usual. It would be just a simple XML edit to the units file.

That actually is a very interesting idea. It meets the 'realism' test...makes it more likely for a 'fleet in being' to overwhelm lone naval units without risking too many losses (which, in my judgment, is a good simulation of naval combat.)

And if you're looking for more Barbarian pirates...check out these:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=251885

[joncnunn]

Perhaps I should have been a bit more specific: I'm mostly refering to Ancient & Classical Era Naval battles
(1 Treb vs 1 Treb / 1 Galley vs 1 Galley / 1 Caravel vs 1 Caravel)

The base strengths are much lower than land units at the time, so the winner of that first round of combat in a 1 unit vs 1 unit match gets an edge that becomes harder and harder to overcome.

It starts to break down Frigate vs Frigate.

With the Drill promotions, your ensuring that only you can possibly win the first X rounds of combat, thus giving yourself a probable edge for the rest of the battle.

Yes, outnumbering your opponent is an even surer way to victory for both the rush tactic and Ancient / Classical Era fleet engagements.

Originally posted by Solomwi

Jon, if you'd be so kind as to elaborate, I'm interested in your thoughts on why this is. Also, are you saying first strikes matter more in individual naval battles than land battles, given the same comparative unit strengths in each, that they matter more in a 2 on 1 (or comparable) situation, by leaving the surviving unit less damaged for the enemy's follow-up attack, or something else entirely? If it's the second, I understand your stance, but if it's the first I'm a bit puzzled.