Not doing so well at Noble

[Standup]

I haven't played a huge amount of BTS. Played a couple of games at the easier levels and then decided to wait for the patch.

Anyway, had a bit of spare time so had a couple of games at noble thinking it would be a gentle re-introduction. Guess I was wrong

I've now played and thoroughly lost five games so the time has come to ask for help. Now the first game I picked Hannibal on a desert map so not a good start but the others went just as wrong.

Now partly I wonder if its because I'm not a particularly aggresive player tending to be a builder, very rarely starting wars.

For the first four games I had no copper, iron or horses and couldn't even see any on the map and nobody was trading. The fifth game went better. Playing as England and mid-ranking by about 1200AD. I'm not going to win but I'm not in danger of being wiped out. Occasional tussle wit Saladin and I've taken a couple of cities. War with Cyrus on the other border not winning but racking up those great general points. Bit of peace, Saladin declares war and then next turn the whole map declares war on me.

This is the bit I don't get - why would everyone suddenly declare war on me? I'm not loosing and vulnerable -if anyone if its Saladin and I'm not pulling ahead. Relations with everyone else range from Cautious to Friendly. Pacal is friendly, declares war and he's still pleased. Most of the others are at the other end of the map and we've barely been introduced. Certainly not close enough for a war.

So a couple of questions. Are my experiences with resources typical? Is noble a proportionally bigger step up than others? And what other changes are there?

But really it's the diplomacy. I don't think I've quite had such a hard time and should friendly and pleased really just declare war for no obvious reason. Is an aggresive strategy the way to go ?

Guess I'll go back down the shallow end

[Willem]

Originally posted by Standup
This is the bit I don't get - why would everyone suddenly declare war on me? I'm not loosing and vulnerable -if anyone if its Saladin and I'm not pulling ahead. Relations with everyone else range from Cautious to Friendly. Pacal is friendly, declares war and he's still pleased. Most of the others are at the other end of the map and we've barely been introduced. Certainly not close enough for a war.

By the sounds of it, you aren't devoting enough to your military. If you're trying to play more of a builder type game, you need to remember that old addage, "Walk softly but carry a big stick." Even though you're not particulary aggressive, you still need to have a strong military, otherwise the other civs will see you as weak and attack you. Frequently. Keep a close eye on the power graph in your Demographics screen. You need to keep yourself in at least the top third or others will start harrassing you.

This is especially true in the dogpile situations you're describing. If you're weak and a civ declares on you, then the other civs will see it as an opportunity to benefit at your expense as well. But if your military is strong enough to handle more than the first civ to declare, then they will think twice about joining in.

So a couple of questions. Are my experiences with resources typical?

No, just bad luck. It happens sometimes.

Is an aggresive strategy the way to go ?

It certainly helps, but it isn't totally necessary. The main thing is to make sure you have enough forces to keep everyone at bay. Never stop producing units, always have at least one city that's doing nothing but, preferably more. If you can become the most powerful civ in the game you'll rarely get anyone to declare on you, except for maybe madmen like Montezuma or Shaka.

[snoopy369]

In Civ: BtS, low power = AI will attack, nearly regardless of attitude. Always have at least mid-level power, even if it's just walls and barracks.

[panther553212]

Re: Not doing so well at Noble

Originally posted by Standup
I haven't played a huge amount of BTS. Played a couple of games at the easier levels and then decided to wait for the patch.

Anyway, had a bit of spare time so had a couple of games at noble thinking it would be a gentle re-introduction. Guess I was wrong

I've now played and thoroughly lost five games so the time has come to ask for help. Now the first game I picked Hannibal on a desert map so not a good start but the others went just as wrong.

Now partly I wonder if its because I'm not a particularly aggresive player tending to be a builder, very rarely starting wars.

For the first four games I had no copper, iron or horses and couldn't even see any on the map and nobody was trading. The fifth game went better. Playing as England and mid-ranking by about 1200AD. I'm not going to win but I'm not in danger of being wiped out. Occasional tussle wit Saladin and I've taken a couple of cities. War with Cyrus on the other border not winning but racking up those great general points. Bit of peace, Saladin declares war and then next turn the whole map declares war on me.

This is the bit I don't get - why would everyone suddenly declare war on me? I'm not loosing and vulnerable -if anyone if its Saladin and I'm not pulling ahead. Relations with everyone else range from Cautious to Friendly. Pacal is friendly, declares war and he's still pleased. Most of the others are at the other end of the map and we've barely been introduced. Certainly not close enough for a war.

So a couple of questions. Are my experiences with resources typical? Is noble a proportionally bigger step up than others? And what other changes are there?

But really it's the diplomacy. I don't think I've quite had such a hard time and should friendly and pleased really just declare war for no obvious reason. Is an aggresive strategy the way to go ?

Guess I'll go back down the shallow end

I'm fairly new so this may not be right but what it sounds like to me is maybe everyone but you has a religion and the apostolic palace voted to declare war on you.(it doesn't have to be their state religion just have to have a city with that religion.

[Theben]

Re: Re: Not doing so well at Noble

Originally posted by panther553212

I'm fairly new so this may not be right but what it sounds like to me is maybe everyone but you has a religion and the apostolic palace voted to declare war on you.(it doesn't have to be their state religion just have to have a city with that religion.

That could be part of it but most likely the problem is as described above- not enough military.

[Swiss Pauli]

Re: Not doing so well at Noble

Originally posted by Standup
But really it's the diplomacy. I don't think I've quite had such a hard time and should friendly and pleased really just declare war for no obvious reason. Is an aggresive strategy the way to go ?

That does sound like an AP inspired war, but it could be a mass dogpile: the AI can decide for war at Cautious but only declare a lot later. If you're trying a peaceful builder game, then check the AIs for 'We Have Enough On Our Hands (WHEOOH)' on a regular basis. If it's positive then it most likely means they're preparing for war against you.

Aggressive is the easiest path, seeing as you expand at your rivals' expense. Rome is a pretty good civ to play in this respect...

[Jaybe]

Re: Re: Not doing so well at Noble

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli
That does sound like an AP inspired war, but it could be a mass dogpile: the AI can decide for war at Cautious but only declare a lot later.

It has been widely reported that they can decide for war at Pleased and later actually declare even at Friendly.

My favorite stab-in-the-back memory: Ragnar offers a defensive pact with me (and silly me, I accepted), and then attacks several turns later. To quote Mad-Eye Moody (of which I am re-reading): CONSTANT VIGILANCE!

[johnmcd]

I've never had too much trouble bar with always being bottom of the power bar league, even at Emperor level with Aggressive AI. I'm not sure where the perception that the AI goes for the throat as soon as it thinks you're weak comes from - if it's direct from Blake then I'll agree but I've not really seen it myself.

If I do find myself at war though, and I know I'm weak I'll do crazy bribes to bring the AIs in against my aggressor and then look to conclude a peace early.

I bet what has happened to you is that Saladin has bribed others to declare war, plus, if they are at the other side of the map, you really have little to fear from them.

[Lancer]

If you're "Not doing so well at Noble" I suggest you do what I do, lose. Losing is easy or hard, it all depends on what you make it. You can try like crazy, debate in your mind every small decision, focus all your energy, your very being bent upon the most minute item, and then lose. Alternately you can get a bottle of your favorite beverage, sing songs to the wolf god, care not for the fury of your enemy, build that wierd assed building your advisor tells you to build, dance nekked to momba drums in you living room, and then lose.

It's really up to you. Find the way to lose that fits you best.

[The Priest]

I agree with johnmcd - I am often not that strong in military on emperor at various stages and don't have a particular problem.

At least there is a balance - all the energy you put into walls, barracks and units, could have produced lots of buildings which woudl lead to higher tech, more gold, bigger cities, more production, and hence of course the possibility of a larger military later on when you want to invade people.

One thing which i think helps is to be aware of the changing balance in the game between attack and defence. There are some periods where the balance is definitely for the defender (e.g. the period before trebs) - in those periods it isn't hard to win a defensive war, while you are investing in your cities so that when the balance changes - when you get trebs, or when you get canons - you can invade.

[Theben]

Nahhh, I agree with Lancer.

[Standup]

I've taken inspiration from Lancer and seeing how much fun i can have losing - which wonder movies haven't i seen yet!

I went back about 20 turns and just build military and got a similar result but a bit later and only 5 out of 7 people declaring war. Going back even further I'm now at war with two of the mid ranking powers but surviving. So i guess it was power and too small a military. It still doesn't feel right having friendly civs declare war - it might be what real players do but makes it hard for SP.

Saladin may have bribed them - might explain why a token force from the HRE turned up 10 turns later. He didn't seem to have much money and no-one wanted to be bribed by me

One mistake I may have made was a dash for divine right so I could have a religion - 40 turns at 70%. Although i was eventually able to trade it for 7 or 8 other, older techs it may have depressed my score?

[rah]

The worst I ever got back stabbed at was at a +17 and I was even higher on the power graph. A few turns before I had even agreed to enter a war at his bidding.
I thought this type of thing was reserved for Human players.

Just a another reminder that you must always be prepared.

[Jvstin]

As the others have said here, even you are a peaceful builder type, you can't neglect the guns entirely, unless you are on a map where the computer AIs are separated from you by lots and lots of water.

I am a peaceful builder type. I love to grab wonders, build peacefully, expand my Civ.

I don't usually play the aggressive bloodthirsty type. (Although I have had fun doing it as a change of pace)

I have learned that unless you want to play on Chieftain level, you can't neglect having at least a basic military and military type buildings (walls, barracks, castles). Sure, you'd rather build another wonder...but you need that longbowman, trust me.

You just tempt the AIs to come knocking you down if you don't, just as you have seen.

[smbakeresq]

If you are a builder, as I am, the total size of your military counts, so if you have many cities, as you should, 2 defensive units in each border city with one unit for the interior cities keeps most AI's off you. I have started to use the walls and castle some, so that will help also.

Usually, once I get the heroic epic built, that city just builds units, which get upgraded as needed with cash. You build up a military over time, so once you get to 2-3 stacks of 10-12 units each you can start picking off the AI's.

I usually play SP, Large or Huge, marathon or epic, whichever is longest, so you have alot of time.