Moai Statues and National Epic

[Modo44]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
Globe Theatre means city size is not limited by happiness. National Park means very little unhealthiness so that doesn't limit size either. So the only limit is food. This allows that one city to get large and run a lot of specialists if you don't have that many happy/healthy resources and your other cities are constrained in size.

Obviously this is less of a consideration for the rabid warmongers amongst us who have stolen all the resources they want from the AI civs.

Hey, that's actually a good idea for one of those conquered, high-food cities I get from the AI. Perhaps it could be used to quickly crank out some great people to make corporations, instead of keeping them in wait from the early industrial age. I guess a beeline might be required to get the national park early, but that sounds very doable. Thanks for the idea.

Originally posted by CerberusIV
About the Moai Statues/Ironworks pairing. It really is best in a city on a river as you can also benefit from a levee. I don't play the Dutch very often but a dike makes the production from a city like this almost obscene.

Indeed, it does. Tried the Dutch on an archipelago map lately, and the Moai Statues city (with lots of water, holding a canal location on a choke point) has been a mid- and late-game production monster. The key was getting the national wonder very early, and using the added production to catch up building-wise.

By the way, the Dutch can build their unique building in cities near any water -- a river is not required.

[Julian Delphiki]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
The other useful pairing that BtS introduced is National Park/Globe Theatre. Needs a city with a couple of food resources and 4-5 forested tiles (a tundra forest city with perhaps a deer and a seafood is ideal).

I don't think i've ever had happiness problems with NP city anyway since forest reserves give +1 happy, so GT seems like a waste in there.

[rah]

I was thinking the same thing.

[CerberusIV]

All depends on how much food you have. If you are isolated or haven't been conquering or the AI won't trade I can find I don't have enough happies. Put Sid's Sushi into a city and I do get situations where cities could grow but can't keep the pop happy.

It works for me but, like everything else with Civ, if it doesn't work for you - don't bother.

[Theben]

By the time you have National Park, you should have had Sid's Sushi (if in SP), so food is no longer an issue.

National Park is too far off to consider not putting NE in an already existing GP pump. I try to have 2-3 max; my capital, an Engineer pump (only GE wonders/specialists), and one on the coast if my capital isn't (for Maoi/Colossus/Lighthouse).

[DirtyMartini]

I think the upshot is that there is not a universal rule for where the national epic should be placed. I used to look for that 4 food special, plenty of hills spot and would put off building the national epic until it was a completely moot point. Now I pretty much just plunk it down in a reasonable location ASAP. In the absence of a traditional high food GP pump, that place is going to be the capital, which, even if food poor, will probably have at least one or two wonders. It may be a coastal city with Moai if I'm trying to generate a great prophet and thats my best recourse (like I missed Angkor Wat). I say just throw it down and get it multiplying. Even if it's not ideal, it still helps.

Same with Moai. Sailing comes so early that it makes sense to just put it in the first reasonable coastal city you've got instead of waiting for that three seafood peninsula spot you won't found for 25 more turns and where it will take 50 turns to build anyway.

[joncnunn]

That depends on what type of forest it is.
grassland-flat forest gets 2 food and supports itself.

Now if you have a lot of hilly forest or especally plains forest and no food resource you may need to chop some of it.

Originally posted by Yosho

Eh...but the thing is, if you build national park in a really hevily forested area, it won't get that big anyway, because there won't be much food there.

[joncnunn]

Agrred, the GT is a complete waste unless you want extra Artists and/or culture in any city with a lot of forest preserves.

Originally posted by JulianD

I don't think i've ever had happiness problems with NP city anyway since forest reserves give +1 happy, so GT seems like a waste in there.

[Theben]

GT seems to me completely worthless. I only ever bother to build it when there's nothing left to build. Of course I only play at prince-monarch levels/SP so maybe it has some value at higher levels/MP.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by joncnunn
That depends on what type of forest it is.
grassland-flat forest gets 2 food and supports itself.

Now if you have a lot of hilly forest or especally plains forest and no food resource you may need to chop some of it.

Chop it? In my national park city?

I'd rather have the free specilist from the forest then the extra food. Especally as you don't even have to work the forest square to get the free specilist.

[The Priest]

Lots of interesting replies!

Two observations:

1. Sounds like Moai is a bit neglected. Beacuse its new, it took me a while to notice its power as an early build. An extra four or five hammers a turn in the early game is really valuable.

2. Strategies are greatly influcenced by whether you aim on being around in the late game. I never get into all this detailed planning about which NW in which cities, because my games are all over bar the shouting by the time the late NW come along. So I just want to get the NW into which ever cities is going to help me most in the classical/medieval/renaissance ages.

I do agree with the comment about putting the NE in a catured capitcal though. The AI seems to produce far more farms rather than cottages than I would. When you capture a capital, it seems a waste to rip up the farms to start on the long road to towns -but the farms in good terrain make a great pump, particulalry because a captured capital is normally a good place for the FP and it and NE connect well.

[DirtyMartini]

Originally posted by The Priest

I do agree with the comment about putting the NE in a catured capitcal though. The AI seems to produce far more farms rather than cottages than I would. When you capture a capital, it seems a waste to rip up the farms to start on the long road to towns -but the farms in good terrain make a great pump, particulalry because a captured capital is normally a good place for the FP and it and NE connect well.

This used to be my approach. I agree that if you capture a foreign capital very early (like pre-catapults) this is a very good strat, and I definitely use is. But if you don't capture one very early, it often takes too long to come online: you have to consolidate the gains around the city, build the courthouse, build the FP, build the library, then build the NE. You may have been delaying starting the NE for many turns at this point, which is something I've been trying to avoid. I can usually find a core city where I can get the NE up and running earlier and that is almost as good in terms of food. Also, caps usually have decent production in addition to decent food, and they may also be closer to your front lines. I think it's more expeditious to go farms and mines and make it your HE or Ironworks city.

[albucc]

Originally posted by Theben
NE goes into the capital almost w/o question, as it's always my main (if not only) GP pump. MS, I try to utilize it in a city with the most water tiles, but as mentioned elsewhere it needs some other form of early production available.

Agreed

[joncnunn]

Really??? I was pretty sure you had to work the forest tile to get the free specalist.

In any case by the time NP is adviable, I find I've already choped all flat-plains forest tiles. (So far I've yet to get the "Johnny Appleseed" event on a plains tile within one of my cities boundaries)

Originally posted by Yosho

Chop it? In my national park city?

I'd rather have the free specilist from the forest then the extra food. Especally as you don't even have to work the forest square to get the free specilist.

[The Priest]

Originally posted by DirtyMartini


This used to be my approach. ... But if you don't capture one very early, it often takes too long to come online: ...

Agree completely. Foreign capitcal is great, but the most important thing is get it up and running soon - don't wait for the 'ideal' spot.