Can Civ ever overcome its pro-land strategic bias?

[Heraclitus]

In there is still little incentive to build a sizable navy. There are uses for it, but they usually aren’t quite worth the investment. I think that if we provide the navy with extra uses, it will become strategically sound to build & maintain them and if that is the case several “tricks “ the AI could be taught to play on the unsuspecting player become (more) viable as well.
By adding a single feature all the others have become more useful. Moders or the devs would eventually program the AI to make use of this, pushing the player towards a navy even further.

My question to Civ4 players then is: What could then, that extra use be?


When posting suggestions please have in mind:
-The devs have tried and failed to implement visible ocean trade routs that could be defended & raided, in a fun way.
-Civ has always been a land based game, suggested features have to be more powerful than what would be considered balanced for a land unit.


The above is a result of the simple fact that the sea can only be improved where there are resources (pillaging is less important) and no cities can be built underwater, there are also no strategic resources except oil. Mind you this has been done in some other games (SMAC, CTP), but I advise against suggesting similar changes to Civ since the majority of players would not accept this.

[Heraclitus]

Ideas with their own threads:

Tribal Villages of the Sea (ala SMAC unity pods meshed with events)

[Crossfire]

If I don't have a decent navy by the time Frigates show up I get attacked from the sea. So while this might not be as soon as you would like navy's to be necessary, they do become so.

[LzPrst]

navies should be vital to protect trade. not just from blockading enemies, but from the historically ever-prevalent presence of pirates. throw up some pirates that will raid and blockade trade routes AND resource trades and I suspect more effort would be put into shipbuilding.

what you could do is invert the blockade function, instead you make a defend shipping lanes-action called 'Interdiction', working opposite of the blockade. The ship will "patrol" the area, waking up to intercept any pirates and hostile ships entering their defensive zone. in order to run 100% trade efficiency you would have to have ships dedicated to Interdiction.

then add a necessity based on technology and ship type that Interdiction can only be performed within a certain range of friendly owned cities or naval bases (new improvement that can be built in neutral and open borders territory).

[Hauptman]

How about barbarian privateers that spawn in the fog and blockade you.... the ai's just rarely use them at all.


Most of my games where I can I rush chemistry (as my main path is too railroads) and thus my privateers own the oceans for quite some time. Thus slowing the ai's research from lost Important trade routes...

The few random barbarian galleys are too few and easily avoidable just by having coastal cities.

[Jaybe]

I envision pirate versions of buildable galleys & triremes. No change to strength & movement, but otherwise similar to the privateer. Should they cost 5 or 10 hammers more since they don't have a reduced strength?

Hmmm... Civ4UnitClassInfos.xml/iMaxPlayerInstances of 3 for each so they don't get spammed. In which case no hammer increase.

I think I'll mod them in for my next game.

[realpolitic]

A second privateer unit would help.

A few air units that land on carriers would help somewhat. If I'm attacking another continent, sometimes I just raze cities.

The difference between oil/non oil navies is a disincentive to stockpiling ships, too.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by LzPrst
navies should be vital to protect trade. not just from blockading enemies, but from the historically ever-prevalent presence of pirates. throw up some pirates that will raid and blockade trade routes AND resource trades and I suspect more effort would be put into shipbuilding.

what you could do is invert the blockade function, instead you make a defend shipping lanes-action called 'Interdiction', working opposite of the blockade. The ship will "patrol" the area, waking up to intercept any pirates and hostile ships entering their defensive zone. in order to run 100% trade efficiency you would have to have ships dedicated to Interdiction.

then add a necessity based on technology and ship type that Interdiction can only be performed within a certain range of friendly owned cities or naval bases (new improvement that can be built in neutral and open borders territory).

I like this idea. It gives a similar dynamic to land defensive armies doesn’t it? It pays to have ships protecting your harbors, but with so many ships it might be just as easy to sacrifice trade and try to destroy your opponent’s trade capabilities.

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by realpolitic
The difference between oil/non oil navies is a disincentive to stockpiling ships, too.

Despite the upgrade costs (and I have increased oiled ship costs even more), I must disagree. Especially if a potential enemy already has combustion & oil, or if they already have a substantial navy.

Get combustion; already have the oil with a fort; reduce research enough to upgrade a galleon or frigate every turn or two. Previous spending restricted so some immediate upgrades are possible.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by realpolitic
A second privateer unit would help.

A few air units that land on carriers would help somewhat. If I'm attacking another continent, sometimes I just raze cities.

The difference between oil/non oil navies is a disincentive to stockpiling ships, too.

Good point. Perhaps make the Ironclad stronger? Or maybe make a second coal based unit between Ironclads and Destroyers? Like there was a new unit added between knights and cavalry, to reduce the cavalry rush.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Jaybe

Despite the upgrade costs (and I have increased oiled ship costs even more), I must disagree. Especially if a potential enemy already has combustion & oil, or if they already have a substantial navy.

Get combustion; already have the oil with a fort; reduce research enough to upgrade a galleon or frigate every turn or two. Previous spending restricted so some immediate upgrades are possible.

True, but wouldn’t you be better off just resigning yourself from the prospect of naval dominance, disband your old ships for shields, and focus on research to get better land units?

This would off course only be a good idea if your empire is mostly on one continent or if you have several large cities on the same continent as you're enemy.

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
True, but wouldn’t you be better off just resigning yourself from the prospect of naval dominance, disband your old ships for shields, and focus on research to get better land units?

resigning yourself from the prospect of naval dominance ... NEVER! On a continents/fractal map, that would mean too many seafood lost, too many cities with blasted defenses. Actually, dominance is not required, but rough parity IS.

disband your old ships for shields ... oops! Looks like a Civ3 moment, here.

EDIT: smilies added. And yes Heraclitus, I DID read your italics; I just didn't comment on them.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Jaybe

disband your old ships for shields ... oops! Looks like a Civ3 moment, here.

Right you are.


Anyhow, gift them to your vassal.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Jaybe

resigning yourself from the prospect of naval dominance ... NEVER! On a continents/fractal map, that would mean too many seafood lost, too many cities with blasted defenses. Actually, dominance is not required, but rough parity IS.

You didn't read the italic text?

[joncnunn]

Actually Civ IV BTS comes fairly close considering where we've been.

Prior to Civ IV there was infinite rail movement so all land units could say go from Protogual to Eastern Siberia in a single turn while it would take a long time indeed to go the same distance with destroyers. In Civ IV Destroyers move at a compable speed to the land units, and if you concentrate on Nav promotions slightly faster.

BTS has introduced the blockade mission, this can cut off intercontential trade entirely against opponents without an adequate navy.