Workshops, Windmills, and Watermills

[dregor]

Let me preface this by going over my usual strategy for improvements. Flood plains and grasslands I'll usually build a cottage on, plains get farms when possible. I'll usually leave plains unimproved until I can spread the irrigation to them in fact, and if they have a forest a lot of the time I'll leave it until I can build a lumbermill unless it's one of my first few cities, in which case I usually need the wood to rush something.

I have problems deciding when it's best to use workshops, windmills, and watermills. Workshop seems mostly detrimental to use. If you use it on a grassland you're depriving yourself of a food, making the tile not self-sufficient. If you use it on a plains you deprive the tile of any food at all. I can see these being okay options if you've got a city with a lot of surplus food, although it seems to me it'd be a better use of that food to run more specialists.

Windmills I'll usually place on plains hills, whereas I keep mines on the grassland hills, allowing the plains hills to be self sufficient in terms of food. Desert hills also get the windmills.

Watermills get built if I find myself with a city without much in the way of hills.

I'm a big fan of having tiles produce at least 2 food so that they "pay" for themselves, so to speak. But I have to wonder if I'm using my improvements well. Anyone see any flaws with my judgments?

[LzPrst]

More or less sound. I believe that part of the use of these improvements are to create specialized economies. For example boosting trade in a city through windmills, or boosting production by workshops. Such cities should have a limited purpose. For example, you want a city to be a military powerhouse. Build nothing but Farms and Workshops and Mines and see how it produces.

If you use a Caste System and have machinery as well, suddenly Workshops make a lot of sense. I agree that on their own they're quite useless, but if you adapt your strategy to it, then suddenly they become very powerful. Go state property and suddenly you'll have the food and the production. have fun, start a war, you'll outproduce just about anybody

[Willem]

Originally posted by dregor
Windmills I'll usually place on plains hills, whereas I keep mines on the grassland hills, allowing the plains hills to be self sufficient in terms of food.

But you're not making your Plain Hill self-sufficient, it takes two food for every citizen. Frankly, I think you should be doing it the other way around. Windmills in the end will give you far more "resources" than a mine ever will and are far more valuable. Consider:

Windmill (after Electricity)

1 Food
1 Hammer
2 Commerce (an extra 2 with Environmentalism)
Total - 4-6 "resources"

Mine ( after Railroad)

2 Hammers
1 with Railroad
Total - 3 "resources"

So you're better off building Windmills over Mines any time, though of course you can't sacrifice the production of all Hills. That's why you leave the Plains Hills and Desert/Tundra Hills to Mines. With Grassland, at least the addition of a Windmill adds enough food to support a single citizen. You don't get that benefit with the other Hill types.[/QUOTE]

[Krill]

It depends on the other tiles that the city has...if it has lots of food no point windmilling the hills, mine them for another production city.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Krill
if it has lots of food no point windmilling the hills,

It frees that food up for more specialists.

[Asmodeous]

Also remember that if you run State Property the -1 food penalty for workshops goes away.

Me.

[mrp]

I presonnally say forget workshops and windmills. watermills I will build. flood plains get farms. Especially now with BTS do to spreading Cereal mills everywhere. I leave a few spaces for cottages. Leave a few forest forest for lumber mills. I mine every hill the Ai on the other hand likes windmills and cottages
I always build watermills a city becoming food plenty or prod starved build watermills
Plus mines can occasionally become additional resources like gold or silver
I'll take a lumber mill over a workshop

[Fleme]

I never use Watermills, Windmills or Lumber Mills (Well I do use these, but very rarely and only on Tundra forests if even those), but am a fan of workshops. Riverless cities on a plains-heavy site, possibly with a few food resources and/or non-riverside grasslands for farming make really good sites for Workshops (the plains tiles, that is), which are comparable to mines. Those cities won't become good in anything except possibly production and Workshops help them do just that.

To each his own though; I suppose one can make good use of the other improvements too as can be seen here. I just find that none of the other improvements serve to specialize city towards any goal since the yields are average at best in every possible scenario.

[Hauptman]

Honestly, I do see a flaw.

Obviosly its different from city to city, however,

cottages on 'every' grassland? no man, FARMS! 3 food (4 later) doesnt seem like much but it gets the other squares into play faster. Faster growth pays off better.

If i have a city placed with mainly grassland and no food specials, 3 or 4 squares get farmed.

I'm also a caste system fanatic, so workshops I use to offset hill-less sights. Under cast system (with guilds and chemistry) a workshop = mined hill with railroad.

Now as a financial civ, I do put windmills on hills that are alongside rivers, 2 comerce = 3 commerce for financial. So windmills on hills and workshops on the grassland, it reverses the roles and pays off better. Otherwise I mine them all, I'm addicted to teh random pop. A supprise copper, gem, silver etc its a great bonus.

Watermills I never touch until electricity is close then I plop them down on newly conquered territory, all that commerce immediatly is better than more later through cottages, plus the extra hammers get the buildings in faster.

3 - 4 cotages per city seem to be plenty for me. Less if its coastal, hilly, or forested. More if its floodplains oriented.

Forests i generally keep on plains or non rivered grassland. That wich doesnt get chopped to hurry a wonder stays the whole game. I try to keep one city VERY well forested for a national park later.


Personally I believe its better to have some real good food squares and some real good resource squares instead of evening it out. It allows for a change of tactics should the need arise. Starve it out for more hammers or click emphasise food for faster growth.

[Jaybe]

One reason I prefer mines on hills is:
if you are not working a mine how are you going to discover a resource on it (e.g., coal, iron, gold, gems) to enhance your trading or corporations?

[dregor]

Hmm, some interesting things to consider, thanks. I too am addicted to the random discovery of mines. In the game I'm currently playing I've gotten several discoveries and it has changed some average sites into good sites. I'll have to try out changing my improvement strategy tho.

[Krill]

Originally posted by Willem


It frees that food up for more specialists.

All well and good if you are using a SE in the end of the game in SP but it's a bad idea in MP and a bad idea if you are running a CE (well maybe not bad but probably suboptimal if you are waging any kind of war.)

[Asmodeous]

I'm also a caste system fanatic, so workshops I use to offset hill-less sights. Under cast system (with guilds and chemistry) a workshop = mined hill with railroad.

Representation + Beaucracy + Caste System + State Property + Organized Religion is an industrial powerhouse late-game.

Me.

[Hauptman]

Originally posted by Asmodeous


Representation + Beaucracy + Caste System + State Property + Organized Religion is an industrial powerhouse late-game.

Me.

State proporty has been Ubernerfed by corporations. Sid's sushi is worth more late game than state property for food (State property = 10 food per city if ALL squares are watermilled or workshopped) And with the addition of power and resource pollution I find it quite difficult to run anything but environmetalism now.

[Asmodeous]

Originally posted by Hauptman



State proporty has been Ubernerfed by corporations. Sid's sushi is worth more late game than state property for food (State property = 10 food per city if ALL squares are watermilled or workshopped) And with the addition of power and resource pollution I find it quite difficult to run anything but environmetalism now.

+10% production bonus in all cities + +25% production bonus for buildings. It's pretty huge.

I don't usually have huge pollution problems save for in a few core cities, and at that point I'm not overly concerned.

Me.