Founding the first city on a hill...

[wodan11]

Sure. And, having the ability to build harbors and lighthouses is nice too.

Still, that doesn't change the fact that I'd rather my city be working land tiles. Almost invariably, my coast cities don't work the coast tiles.

Wodan

[Theben]

I think the topic revolves around the phrase "start...doomed". Now I certainly don't like having a coastal city with no water specials, but a capital city (start) will usually have 2-3 water resources. That's a rather significant boost to growth and commerce/science early on. Yes, you have to build work boats but they ain't expensive, and they don't stop your city's growth, and they're built instantaneously.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by wodan11
Oh and by the way, I agree access to the sea is good, but it's also bad. It means you almost certainly have no option of your capitol having a solid 5-6 what I call "core" cities with the lowest city maintenance.
Wodan

Except if you get to start on an inland sea.


That's the ex-Egyptian capital in the middle. Friggin' Ramzes even had two canal cities that connected his capital to the ocean (Alexandria is the first, following another inland sea, and then Giza).

[couerdelion]

I’m surprised by the negative views of coastal cities. These are usually very good for food and reasonable commerce providers. I will almost never settle within two tiles of the coast because this can stop me from working the coastal tiles which are decent enough tiles to work in the early stages of the game.

I think the optimal city location argument can be overplayed also. Most people don’t simply settle a capital and then place their next six cities in a perfect hexagonal pattern 4 tiles from the capital’s location. The maps invariably give you some suboptimal terrain around the capital so there will always be gaps. Better city locations will also be found moving further afield or by overlapping city crosses. The extra costs of having one more city located 8 tiles from the capital rather than 4 is unlikely to be crippling to the economy – particularly if your coastal cities are comfortably generate double digit commerce.

For me, the capital’s location on the coast is a big bonus because it gives me a lot more options

a) Health and commerce bonuses from harbour
b) Better trade routes with sailing
c) Strategic benefits (exploration and naval units for faster movement)
d) Great Lighthouse and Colossus

I generally find that development on the coast makes my games that little bit easier because the commerce generally looks after itself.

[rah]

Agreed. Especially since I usually overdo the war mongering which means you don't want to rely too heavily on traded resources for health. The +2 from the harbor is nice to have. It's also nice when you're doing the sea economy strat and drop a new city on the coast and it has a postive influence on you money right away instead of costing more.

[DirtyMartini]

Agree with couerdelion --

The only real downside to a a coastal start is that you're limited in direction of expansion, often quite dramatically. You may have to go through a tough neighbor you would have preferred to leave alone initially (e.g. protective or creative). While you have more border to defend with a landlocked start, you generally have more options for war/landgrab as well. I agree about the economic benefits of coastal start.

I've also gotten over my hatred of dead space and overlapping tiles. Dead space of non-river plains or even grasslands is not a big deal at all. Overlap of tiles can actually be very beneficial early, for example allowing sharing of food resources between two cities. Later in the game, I'll squeeze a massively overlapped city just about anywhere if it's the only way to work a particular food resource or a couple of floodplains.

[Unimatrix11]

Land locked starts make me panic instantly - i dont like them at all. And i dont mind being on one end of a continent either... not at all... i rather work my way from one end to the other than being threatened on multiple sides...

[Yosho]

Originally posted by wodan11
If your capitol is vulnerable to pillaging you're seriously in trouble. I can see a border city, but your capitol?!?

Wodan

(shrug) I have barbs pilligang land around my capital in the early game. Especally anything two sqaures away; you often just can't get there in time to stop the barbs, unless you already have a fortified archer there protecting the resource.

[snoopy369]

Don't you have enough units to be able to go out and stop them? And roads of course? All it takes are two units in the early game in each city, an axe and a chariot, and you're fine... chariot takes care of axes and warriors/archers a distance away, axe the rest ...

[Yosho]

As for coastal cities; yeah, land squares are better then water squares. I usually do found some cities that mostly just work the water, but those I tend to get later after all the good inland spots are taken.

[snoopy369]

I definitely like coast starts, though land have their advantages also... the way I see it though, coast starts typically have a faster start-up than land, particularly if I have fishing.

* More food resources - nearly always 3 or more, and that means fast build-up of population to slave away
* More commerce points - 2 for each tile, 3 if FIN; normally you get 5/0/0 or 5/0/1 if you're lucky from grassland food bonuses, with Fish it's 5/0/2(3) and 4/0/2(3) for crab/clam.
* Ability to grow through initial turns - Normally a land start you go worker first, while for a fish start you go workBOAT first. Even though you probably need to work a non-fish tile early on to get your workboat out reasonably fast, you still get some growth in; work a plains forest for total city 3(-2)/3 and you get the boat in 10 turns, and have 10 food built up already... normally I'd have another 5 turns to wait for my worker, and no growth at all.
* No enemy on one side - never underestimate the value of this. Yes, less room to grow, but you have a lot less to worry about also in the future, and can focus on ONE enemy while not having to watch your back.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Don't you have enough units to be able to go out and stop them? And roads of course? All it takes are two units in the early game in each city, an axe and a chariot, and you're fine... chariot takes care of axes and warriors/archers a distance away, axe the rest ...

To build axes and chariots, you need copper and horses. On medium or large maps, you must be lucky to have the one or more of the 3 most important resources (copper, iron and horses)within reach of your first 3 cities. Quite often I beeline to Iron Working, only to find the closest tile of Iron far away in enemy lands. Then I have to fight my way to it with archers, or give up the game and start all over.

[johnmcd]

Coastal starts are great because you get health, commerce, two food (they're growth neutral) and your back is covered.

I don't know how you folk are playing but you really only two serious production towns to churn military units, and there is nothing to stop them being coastal too.

If you build a coastal empire the Great Lighthouse and harbours will you out-strip anyone for research, if you can get the Colossus, or you're Hannibal too then there isn't much anyone can do.

There is a time and a place for an inland city - I won't pretend that a four gem city with horses and a crazy river meandering all over isn't worth a settler, but in general I favour the coast. It will be a long time into the game till you can work every tile in a radius anyway - by then you'll generally be playing the game out anyway.

[wodan11]

If you're working coasts you aren't working cottages or specialists.

Wodan

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by wodan11
If you're working coasts you aren't working cottages or specialists.

Wodan

So? In the early game, 4/0/2 or 5/0/2 is much better than 2/0/1 or 2/0/2 that you get from a cottage; and you're probably not using it anyway, because a) you don't have pottery and b) you need to grow your city quickly. It's the choice between a 5/0/2 fish and a 5/0/0 grassland rice or whatever... I'll take the fish any day, especially when you inevitably have 3 of them, which is rather more than you get of non-seafood food resources usually.