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  • The Role of Barbarians

    I've been complaining about barbarians in Civ IV in another thread, and that discussion has gotten me thinking about the role barbarians play in Civ. In Civ, barbarians routinely act like crazy people who are willing to throw their lives away against overwhelming odds in the hope of maybe causing a little damage before they die. That is totally unrealistic, and personally, I don't view it as fun either.

    Before we move on, it is important to understand what barbarians actually are. Barbarians are people who speak a different language (which is where the term comes from), have different customs, and have a less advanced technology and culture. They have wives and children to care for, and they have the same range of emotions as other human beings. They aren't wild animals whose only reason for existing is to attack anyone they see. If their victims view them as wild animals, it is usually because the victims don't understand or refuse to acknowledge their actual motives.

    In thinking about motives for barbarian attacks, I've been able to come up with four basic categories.

    1) The barbarians face a threat that forces them to fight to defend themselves or to defend what they view as belonging to them.

    2) The barbarians' leaders see a target that they believe (either rightly or wrongly) is sufficiently vulnerable that the benefits of attacking it outweigh the costs and risks.

    3) The barbarians have been pushed out of their old home, and they think it makes more sense to fight for a new home than to fight to reclaim their old home. (My understanding is that at least some of the barbarians who led to the downfall of Rome were victims of this kind of pressure.)

    4) If the barbarians have a culture that values bravery in combat, their culture requires at least some fighting so people can have a chance to prove their bravery. However, this type of culture is more likely to lead to raiding than to deliberate, direct attacks on full-scale military units.

    So how should these four types of behavior be represented in Civ?

    1) Most barbarian units should stay in the area where they are spawned (with a limit on how many can live in an area before new ones stop spawning). There should be some chance of their attacking units that are passing through, with the chance increasing with the number of units passing through. (The more units pass through, the more they are likely to be perceived as a threat.) And the barbarians living in an area should fight against any attempt to settle on their lands if they have any realistic chance of success (and maybe sometimes even if they don't).

    2) Barbarians should generally attack if they have a shot at an undefended city, settler, or worker. There should also be a chance of their attacking defended targets, with the odds going down the more the balance of power is against the barbarians.

    3) There should be occasional "barbarians have been dislocated from their homes and are looking for a new place to live" events that make barbarians more likely to attack than normal, and likely to attack in larger numbers.

    4) There should be occasional barbarian raids on the infrastructure on the fringes of civilizations. These raids should become more frequent if civs rarely or never kill the intruders, and less frequent if civilizations routinely hunt down and kill the intruders.

    This combination of behaviors would make barbarians a meaningful obstacle to expansion, and would force players to maintain a credible defense against barbarians. But players would not have to spend a lot of time and resources fighting barbarian maniacs whose only purpose in life seems to be to cause them trouble - unless the players want to.

    In conjunction with this type of system, there could be two barbarian activity sliders: one that determines how numerous the barbarians are and another that determines how aggressive they are. There might also be a third that controls how strong the barbarians are, affecting how large a bonus the players and AIs get against barbarians and how quickly barbarians get access to more advanced units.

  • #2
    I'd like to see a much different role for barbs too. I agree there should be more reason to their assaults - probably even organised assaults on cities.

    I also think that after about 1 AD the whole world map should full of cities, gaps left by players being filled by barbs. Most empire was driven by conquest of land, not settling virgin soil.
    www.neo-geo.com

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    • #3
      Some very good thoughts here. I'd love to see a bit more logic in barbarian actions.

      I may laugh at the barbarian warriors attacking my fortified Skirmisher on the forested hill, but it also makes me sad...

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      • #4
        Before we move on, it is important to understand what barbarians actually are. Barbarians are people who speak a different language (which is where the term comes from), have different customs, and have a less advanced technology and culture. They have wives and children to care for, and they have the same range of emotions as other human beings. They aren't wild animals whose only reason for existing is to attack anyone they see. If their victims view them as wild animals, it is usually because the victims don't understand or refuse to acknowledge their actual motives.


        Actually, they're bits in a machine.

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        • #5
          I'd love to see that "HAHAHA You're getting crushed by a stack of 8 Axemen 20 turns into the game when all you have is warriors, newb!" event go away.

          Me.

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          • #6
            Barbs were put into the game to prevent the human player from building Granaries, Settlers, Cottages and Workers exclusively while the AI defends its cities against the possibility of a rush. They're meant to promote an early balance between military, infrastructure, and expansion.

            Barbs aren't supposed to act in any logical or concerted way; that's what the AIs civs do. All the Barbs are meant to do is harass the player enough that they can't get away with building only Warriors until he/she is ready to go on the offensive. That was one of the biggest exploits in Civ3: always going to war on your own terms after a threat-free buildup stage.

            A few Chariots and Axemen early almost entirely remove the threat of Barbs (and give you XP to boot). The only thing you have to worry about then is Barb cities springing up in inconvenient places. Personally I find this feature a lot of fun, but I appreciate that it's sometimes very annoying (especially once they upgrade to Longbowmen).

            There are several in-game mechanisms for dealing with Barbs, other than the aforementioned Chariots and Axemen. Use Warriors to clear the fog of war enough that you have a fair warning of approaching Barbs. Place your Warriors on tiles with a high defense bonus and lure Barbs to those areas. Found early Religions to push your Cultural out further. Build the Great Wall. Play civs that have early UUs, like the Mali or Incans.

            And there's always the No Barbarians option in the game setup.
            Last edited by Dominae; December 15, 2007, 14:08.
            And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

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            • #7
              That's not exactly a feasible response when you get an uprising of 8-10 archers in 2360 BC, Dominae, which has happened in 8 of the last 14 games I've played. :/

              Worst RE ever.

              Me.

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              • #8
                Barbs aren't supposed to act in any logical or concerted way; that's what the AIs civs do. All the Barbs are meant to do is harass the player enough that they can't get away with building only Warriors until he/she is ready to go on the offensive. That was one of the biggest exploits in Civ3: always going to war on your own terms after a threat-free buildup stage.


                But it's not threat-free anymore, now that Blake's AI rushes too.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Asmodeous
                  That's not exactly a feasible response when you get an uprising of 8-10 archers in 2360 BC, Dominae, which has happened in 8 of the last 14 games I've played. :/

                  Worst RE ever.
                  My post wasn't a response to yours. I agree that that event is a bit too much sometimes.
                  And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Kuciwalker
                    But it's not threat-free anymore, now that Blake's AI rushes too.
                    Aggressive AI, yes.
                    And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

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                    • #11
                      Aside from agreeing 100% with Dominae, I would also note that your four categories don't include the Mongol and similar tribes pre-Genghis Khan (or during and post for that matter, though at that point I suppose they cease being barbarians and become a Civ). They raided regularly because that was what they did; tribes would raid each other periodically, taking herd animals and often women (to be wives), essentially as a form of trade. Not entirely unlike what the barbarians in Civ do ...

                      Ultimately, the thing is that barbarians are accomplishing with you, nbarclay, exactly what the designers want them to. They're making you build defenses and military units sooner than you'd prefer. You can either change your style and accept that, or turn them off...

                      I think barbarian spawn settings are editable in the XML files also btw, if you play SP mostly (as I think you do?) ... in the GameInfo\Civ4HandicapInfo.xml file, you can edit any of:

                      iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianUnit (bigger = fewer barbs)
                      iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianCity (same)
                      (same for water tiles = water units and animals=animals)
                      iBarbarianCreationTurnsElapsed = when they get created first (after turn 35 in Noble, 20 in Emperor, etc.)
                      (Same for city)
                      iBarbarianCityCreationProb (bigger = more cities)
                      iBarbarianBonus (percent bonus you get against a barbarian unit expressed as a negative number; -10 means 10% for noble)
                      (same for animal)
                      iAIBarbarianBonus (percent bonus the AI gets against barbs expressed as a negative number)
                      iBarbarianDefenders (number of barbarians per barbarian city)

                      The first two are the most important, as they define how many barbarians are created. For every # of tiles that are not owned, a barbarian unit can exist; so in Noble you have 1 barbarian unit for every 60 tiles that are unowned. In Emperor the default is 35, so nearly twice as many units can exist (and generally will, unless you aggressively scout and fog-bust). Upping that number back towards 60 will probably help you out quite a bit... The AI bonus is the same on all levels, and I think that is some of the factor as well; the AI gets a 25% bonus against a barbarian, while you get a 0 on Emperor for example. That means the AI can ignore barbarians much more safely than you can early on...

                      There is also a logical conclusion that can be drawn from this. Fewer unowned tiles = fewer barbarians. Higher levels usually have slower expansion (more expensive, more risk from AIs). Thus, more barbs as it is. If you can manage to increase your expansion rate (even just your CULTURAL expansion) you will have fewer barbs as a result...
                      Last edited by snoopy369; December 15, 2007, 18:17.
                      <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
                      I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dominae


                        My post wasn't a response to yours. I agree that that event is a bit too much sometimes.
                        I know, I just was just stressing the matter, for the record.

                        Because that event blows.

                        Me.

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                        • #13
                          You can always remove the event from possibly happening...
                          <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
                          I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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                          • #14
                            That is a very dangerous prospect.

                            Me.

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                            • #15
                              Why is that?

                              (There are five barb uprisings ... you could eliminate two or three of them and still have a few happen, or else reduce the probability of it happening by altering the percentgamesactive entry (smaller = less likely) or the iWeight entry (also smaller = less likely, I think). Or give it a prereq tech so it won't happen before you have, say, BW... or if you are worrying about yourself cheating (and not getting say BW until late, as dumb as that would be) make it so it requires another civ to have BW.
                              <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
                              I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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