[BtS-Scenario] Discussion: Age of Discovery

[Dale]

Okay folks, IF (note I said "if" not that I "will" do it) I were to convert the popular AoD mod to BtS, what changes would you like to see?

I'd like to see the following:
1. Add South America and African West Coast.
2. More Indian city names.
3. BtS piracy (with Pirate Hunters modified to fit).
4. Better trading concept between New and Old Worlds (in other words drop the auto-trading vessels for different method).
5. Start 1418 which marks both the darkest time for France (fall of Paris to the Duke of Burgandy) and the historical beginning of the Age of Exploration (first part of the Age of Discovery) and European colonisation with Portugal's discovery and settlement of the Madeira Islands by Henry the Navigator.

[joncnunn]

Actually I think 1418 is a pretty poor time to start.
Alll the European powers are going to be a bit too busy fighting to actually explore.

In addition, I'm fairly sure 1418 predates the royal marriage that marked the beginning of the merger of Aragon & Castile into Spain.

Actually unless there's copyright issues with doing so, I think the Civ 3 Conquest is a much better baseline to start and add religions. The European Powers could start in Catholic Christanity, and whoever builds the Thesis wonder founds Protestant Christanity. (Borrowing wonder founding religion from Gods of Old mod). Over in the Americas, they probably should all start in the same religion (American Indian Polythesim?) since if they each have their own versions their going to spend too much time fighting each other instead of Europe.

[Kuciwalker]

They actually did spend too much time fighting each other instead of Europe.

[joncnunn]

I was mostly thinking along the lines are just Incas, Mayas, and Aztecs and with different religions the Incan AI is highly likely to declare war on the Mayan AI (or the reverse) dispite the distance, which would be highly ahistoric. Come to think of it though, I think it's even more ahistoric to have a Mayan tribe in 1492.

In North America though, you do have a very good point, the British and French recruited Indian allies by providing firearms for them to fight their rivals.

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
They actually did spend too much time fighting each other instead of Europe.

[Dale]

Thanks for the feedback, anything else?

[joncnunn]

I'm thinking Europeans should start in H.R. + Vassalage + Serfdom + Theocracy.

And probably the following civics shouldn't be in an Age of Discovery at all: all economic ones other than default, Free Religion, Emancipation, Free Speech, Nationhood, Universal Suffrage, Police State.

[Dale]

First draft of the new tech tree is attached.

Any tech in yellow indicates something comes from researching it. Many more techs give something than the old version.

[Gravebringer99]

AOD Suggestions

Excellent tech tree.

If I may ask, is the lines of parallel tech including longitude or is it more representive of lines of latitude. Important to Mecator usage, prehaps, not so important to Waldeemuller.

I just finished reading "A World Lit Only by Fire, The Medieval Mind and the Renaissance, Portrait of an Age" by William Manchester. Its an excellent read. Mr. Manchester details European life from Medieval to Renaissance times up too Magellan's Circumnavigation in very good prose.

Second Question: Reasoning follows Baptism...
I am going to infer that you may mean that Scholastic philosophy 15th century, Humanism 16th, Rationalism 17th, Enlightenment 18th, Marxism 19th, etc, where as Catholicism gave rise to Protestism and the Reformation.

Lutherism was followed by Anglicanism, and Calvinism, not to mention Ana-Baptist, Mennonites, Bohemians, and the fore runners of the Baptists, Congregationalists, Presbyterians, and Unitarians.

So how to represent that in a tech tree, huh.
Hmm.

Third: An observation. Prehaps, renaming some of the modern 19th and 20th century techs.
Hmm, Dragoon at bayonet, is a good starting line, followed by Grenadiers at chemistry. Cussisars most likely need inclusion, but how to end the period with Neapolonic weapons and tactics.
Obviously Machine guns, airplanes, and combustion engines had not evolved yet so Hot ballons ----> Airships.
Cogs, carracks, galleons, brigatines, indiaman, frigates, Ships of the Line, Ironclads.

[Dale]

Re: AOD Suggestions

Originally posted by Gravebringer99
Excellent tech tree.

If I may ask, is the lines of parallel tech including longitude or is it more representive of lines of latitude. Important to Mecator usage, prehaps, not so important to Waldeemuller.

The "Parallel Lines" tech between Signalling and Bayonet is all about military parallel lines. The old tactic they loved from about the time of US Revolution till the US Civil War of regiments of men lining up across from each other and firing the **** out each other.

Second Question: Reasoning follows Baptism...
I am going to infer that you may mean that Scholastic philosophy 15th century, Humanism 16th, Rationalism 17th, Enlightenment 18th, Marxism 19th, etc, where as Catholicism gave rise to Protestism and the Reformation.

Lutherism was followed by Anglicanism, and Calvinism, not to mention Ana-Baptist, Mennonites, Bohemians, and the fore runners of the Baptists, Congregationalists, Presbyterians, and Unitarians.

So how to represent that in a tech tree, huh.
Hmm.

You see my problem. I think what I have is a good representation, so unless there's a compelling arguement I'd prefer not to stuff around with religions.

Third: An observation. Prehaps, renaming some of the modern 19th and 20th century techs.
Hmm, Dragoon at bayonet, is a good starting line, followed by Grenadiers at chemistry. Cussisars most likely need inclusion, but how to end the period with Neapolonic weapons and tactics.
Obviously Machine guns, airplanes, and combustion engines had not evolved yet so Hot ballons ----> Airships.
Cogs, carracks, galleons, brigatines, indiaman, frigates, Ships of the Line, Ironclads.

One thing you need to keep in mind is not to have too many units that they blend too much in-game and become useless. There's a couple more units than the old AoD, but I still think it'll work as there was room.

[Gravebringer99]

AOD Suggestions

Orginally Posted by Dale.
The "Parallel Lines" tech between Signalling and Bayonet is all about military parallel lines. The old tactic they loved from about the time of US Revolution till the US Civil War of regiments of men lining up across from each other and firing the **** out each other.

I did not know that. Cool, then that would be the correct form for Army and grand fleet tactics in that era. Thanks. I had mistakenly thought it was in reference to map making circa Greece, I forget the group atm. It also brought to mind that excellent program and book called "Longitude". Especially with the Mecator Maps tech.

Hmm, speaking of the Revolution, I don't recall atm if irregulars were employed elsewhere globally to have had a significant enough impact tacticly. I am thinking of the sharpshooters and other scorched tactics employed in the Georgia campaign. I don't recall the actual units names atm, sorry. Its just something to consider. Actually now I don't believe that irregular warfare became much of a factor till the American Civil War.

I see your point on limiting the number of unit choices. Its easy to get caught up in their minor differences when a general template is better for gameplay.

I concur with you on the religions. Less is better. Its difficult to separate a dynamic national structure like H.R. Representative, Police State, liberalism, theocracy, pacifism, etc. and then to associate them with a particular religious sect or the rise of a religion.

Perhaps as an event like the hearsy event. Hmm, a GP has appeared the German lands of the Holy Roman Empire and now liberalism is available for research, +/- such and such years of the actual event. Or to trigger Dutch independence from Spain.

Or an event with a great scientist that allows the apple to fall on Newton's head.

Your tech tree is fine. I just needed a little clarification.


Those nations at that time were all pretty much theocratic police states at the start. Some more tolerant than others. Those others would come into your home to ensure that even the furniture was approved. If, say, you where Swiss and had an Ikea coffee table, then trail by ordeal.

I have not tried the AoD mod for CIV IV 1.61. I keep thinking of the CIV III one. I'll have to try it out.

I am looking forward to this.

Thanks.
GB

12 Dec 2007
I played the AoD Mod last night at the recommended start in the Readme. That is a fantastic mod. Great intro. The tech tree is fine. Units are fine. I would definitely utilize the religious spread as suggested earlier and maybe borrow the inquistor and relic units from the Charlegmane mod.
There were some minor game mechanics issues, but I believe those are more CIV IV 1.74 (I'll check again, but I think that was the version I have) issues and not the mod.
If you keep your 1492 start date then the map is fine. I think if there were a strong enough desire all around to have an earlier start then perhaps a Prince Henry the Navigator wonder could be included, however the map may resemble the CIV III one and that may be more a rework of the CIV III mod than a simple update to an already fine mod.

[joncnunn]

Re: Re: AOD Suggestions

In other words, a massive game of Russian-Roulette.

Someone's going to get hit on every round in the front rows of each side, probably not you.

Originally posted by Dale
The "Parallel Lines" tech between Signalling and Bayonet is all about military parallel lines. The old tactic they loved from about the time of US Revolution till the US Civil War of regiments of men lining up across from each other and firing the **** out each other.