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  • I would wholeheartedly advise anyone who has not read Marx to do so. As I see it, nbarclay is critiquing the Soviet system much more than he is critiquing Marxist philosophy. It takes only a little peek beneath elementary history lessons to get at the fact that the Soviet Union was anything but a natural outgrowth of Marxist teachings. In fairness, nbarclay acknowledges this possibility, so I gather there is at least a measure of awareness that Marxism and Stalinism are wildly different ideologies.

    Marx not only understood the labor-saving value of automation -- he predicted correctly that it would put tremendous stress on workers while providing tremendous benefits to owners. Perhaps the most fundamental of all Marxist teachings is that socioeconomic tension will invariably result from situations where workers do not own the means of production, because technology drives a trend of fewer laborers being able to accomplish more productivity. This plays out in economics as a constant pressure to keep working class incomes low while hereditary industrialists cohere into an aristocracy with consumptive habits wildly out of proportion to anything they might contribute to society.

    In other words, Marx predicted the modern United States, except that he then further predicted the majority being kept under poor economic conditions would rise up against a decadent minority that typically offers no greater contribution to society than being born to into a tycoon's dynasty. In point of fact, the median purchasing power of an American household has changed hardly at all in the past thirty years. Yet the continued enrichment of the rich plays out through the perversions of the American political system as if it were fundamentally righteous. It is as if every miner, construction worker, nurse, teacher, firefighter, trucker, et al. had squat all to do with American prosperity while individuals born into wealth rightfully deserve all the gains from decades of economic progress.

    As far as I know (not having read everything Marx ever wrote,) the man is hardly guilty of any of the failings cited above. The question of whether workers should own the means of production is separate from the question of whether economic activity should be subject to central planning. It is true that communist thinkers may tend toward an emphasis on central planning over decentralization, but the greatest extremes (and greatest follies) of Soviet economic planning had more to do with the overbearing tendencies of dictatorship than the fact that centralized planning just can't be done effectively. Heck, in America nationwide oligopolies exist in many different economic sectors. What is the work of corporate headquarters but to plan the activities of corporate bureaucracies, some today as vast and convoluted as any Soviet agency?

    The idea that "government most assuredly isn't so equipped" to plan economic activity seems to come from unthinking devotion to capitalist ideology. Take American agricultural policy as an example. If farmers were completely independent and driven by market forces, who knows how soon severe shortfalls would wreck these wonderful supply chains that make it possible to feed our multitudes so inexpensively. Because food is so fundamental, a security issue as much as an economic issue, every year the federal government spends billions upon billions of dollars to shape the American harvest. Incentives and other market manipulations are favored over raw edicts, but the effect is the same -- a national agricultural plan determines what seeds go in the ground each spring, and thus indirectly determines what goods stock supermarket shelves the year round. There is more too it than that, but anyone who believes the nation would be better off chucking the whole system and playing dice with our harvests might as well just put on the tinfoil hat and start spewing nonsense about the Earth being created in the last 7,000 years too.

    To refocus though, the central question Marx asks is not "should the government be deciding how many of each type of shoe is manufactured in a given year?" or "should everyone be compensated equally for the same job without any regard for performance?" Instead he asks, "should an ownership class enjoy all the spoils from growing economies while increasingly expendable workers do the actual work without experiencing any actual gains?" The Soviet failure provides a convenient distraction, not to mention generations of our own propaganda to keep people fixated on hostility toward that distraction. This angry fixation prevents openness to the underlying ideas that moved men like Lenin and Trotsky to action.

    It seems more like a religious belief than a function of anything real to argue that corporations are uniformly efficient or government is uniformly inefficient. Clearly there are many instances where market forces are tremendously useful. On the other hand, do we really want to go without an army for a few weeks because some screwball executive at National Defense Inc. pulled an Enron and bankrupted the organization? Do we really want our disaster relief efforts held up while guys with spreadsheets crunch numbers on the best way to profit from human misery?

    There are some vital human endeavors that are far better accomplished with an organizational disregard for the profit motive. Then there are many more, like agriculture, where a coherent national plan imposed on a vast array of individual economic actors achieves a harmonious balance of control with chaos. Too much control can produce suboptimal outcomes, but so can too much chaos.

    Allowing workers to own the means of production can still produce wonderful outcomes provided there is not so much corruption that there really are no incentives to do good work or disincentives to do poor work. As things stand today in America, it is much more the illusion of incentives like this than any actual incentives that make business churn along as it does. Sometimes a Soviet doctor received a promotion because he was a highly effective healer, and sometimes he received it because he schmoozed with the administrator. Is it any different in American hospitals, or factories, or office towers?

    The myth that Soviet citizens could not advance for doing good in their jobs pastes over a much more important concern -- public morale sucks when your power-grabbing government lies constantly while ratcheting up privacy intrusions and the extent to which dissenting voices can be silenced or punished. It was just plain wrong to argue that advancement was impossible under the Soviet system, as it occurred through very much the same blend of merit and office politics as any other working environment naturally develops.

    However, it was true that people deep down did not feel dedicated to helping either the state or their particular collectives (i.e. the factory, farm group, or other business unit they personally worked in) from accomplishing its goals. In areas where spirits still ran high, like the Soviet space program, human efforts squeezed great accomplishment out of modest resources. In areas where there was no such inspiration, like a backwater ranch or a humble shoe factory, apathy and alcoholism were rampant. Based on the realities of Soviet life, it seems unsound to chalk failures up to a lack of capitalism when there were so many much finer and more worthwhile institutions also absent.

    If we are to be honest about all this, then we would also do well to be honest about nations like Holland or Switzerland. There a cutthroat "work or starve" paradigm would be regarded as barbaric (perhaps rightly so) by nearly all native citizens. Yet in spite of their relaxed ways and tolerance for economic freeloaders, those nations continue to experience growth and produce worthwhile innovations. Could it possibly be that something other than fear of homelessness and hunger generates satisfaction for a productive worker, or are we not permitted to look at intersections of liberty and socialist economics when trying to get a grip on how much of the capitalist manifesto (e.g. competition for profit is always the best way to motivate productivity) is just dogmatic hype?

    Of course Marx is not flawless, and communism is imperfect too. Yet to get at what is really wrong with those ways of thinking, one must first dewoolify one's eyes of Red Scare trickery. Managers of worker-owned co-operatives are not prevented from orchestrating better outcomes, and managers of privately owned corporations are certainly not prevented from orchestrating inferior outcomes. This leaves Marx in a neutral position when it comes to managerial quality (speaking of the consequences of his ideas . . . presumably he was for it in a more abstract sense.) Performance-based pay incentives, merit-based promotions, institutional profit sharing, etc. -- all of these are ideas that fit just as well with Marxist distribution of ownership as they fit with capitalist consolidation of ownership.

    Regards,
    Adam Weishaupt
    Last edited by Adam Weishaupt; November 24, 2007, 20:23.

    Comment


    • A good fundamental question is whether discounting is actually correct at a human level, ignoring economic concerns.

      We'll use fish for example.

      Lets say there's a million tonnes of fish in a given fishery. The fish biomass reproduces at a rate of 10% per year and we'll say the interest rate is also 10% year. The fish can be sold for $10 net profit per ton (once all is said and done).

      To keep the example really simple, we'll say there's a lot of demand for fish and a lot of fishing-power.

      The whole lot could be fished in a single year, genociding the entire population. This earns 10 million dollars which could be banked for 1 million in interest every year thereafter.

      The other end of the spectrum is taking only 10% of the fish per year, completely sustainably. This earns 1 million per year.

      It is CLEARLY the correct thing to do to simply wipe out the fish. You then earn a million a year ever after for sitting on your bum.

      The question is, is what is optimal in terms of our economic system, also optimal for society?

      The real acid test, is whether actual wealth has actually been created by that fishing binge? The fish stock is clearly wealth of a form, natural capital. Every year it definitely generates a 100,000 tonnes of fish, that's a very, very real effect.

      if you want an even more telling example, try this one (with the fish breeding more slowly).

      Someone BORROWS money to acquire the fishing fleet, they then genocide the fish, repay the loan and have some profit on the side, better than what they could have earned from investing that money.

      The question is, have they actually created wealth by doing that process? Or would it have been better, in terms of good for society, to keep that fish stock around?

      An economic system should work like this:
      What is in the individuals best interests, is also in societies best long term interests.

      "Human behavior is economic behavior"

      Take the fish example and now imagine it's a system which I'm fond of, one where you can't put money in a bank and profit. A system where money can't multiply. This means if you have a stack of money, it decays.
      In such a system it makes economic sense to invest in natural capital, things which quite definitely create new wealth which you can hold in your hand rather than see on a balance sheet.

      In a system where money decays in value, the optimal thing to do with a stack of cash is to make a long term investment where you earn a little money each year.

      Imagine the fishing example; if you want to be set for life, what to you do?

      You don't fish the whole lot out (make 10 mil now then lose 10% of the balance a year until you're broke), instead you're much better served by owning a small fishing fleet which takes fish sustainably and brings in income every year.

      "Human behavior is economic behavior"

      Furthermore, if this becomes the economically optimal way to fish, fishermen would be VEHEMENT about protecting their fish stocks from being overfished. They wont be dragged kicking and screaming to accepting quotas, the fish stocks become something they're incredibly invested in and they will protect those stocks! Anyone who overfishes becomes a madman, someone acting contrary to his own best economic interests and everyone else's, in fact it's pretty much criminal.

      Look up "Demmurage Currency" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_(currency) for a very brief overview), it's a very interesting topic and it's fascinating to see how human behavior changes when the economic rules change.


      It's a subject which requires A LOT of study - I mean that in general not at a personal level. I'll say a little more about that soon...


      Obviously in the fishing example, there might be some other kind of natural capital which reproduces at a higher rate and thus in principle it could still be worth wiping out the fish and investing the profits in something else. However I strongly suspect that a cheaper way to acquire money to invest in natural capital would just be taking a bank loan, since thanks to demmurage there's no need to charge a high interest rate (of course as per today, bank loans would have to be backed by something real).

      A fiat currency can be made to demmurage instead of earn interest. People have explored this concept in the past, particularly during the great depression. The problem in the past, was with coins and notes. If someone hides a hundred $1 notes under the bed, how do you make it so that after a year, there's only ninety notes there? There are of course ways, like having money which expires and has to be brought back to the bank, so you bring in $100 of expired (unspendable) notes and get $90 of fresh (spendable) notes and there were other ways too which were tried.
      The basic issue was this; while technically far superior, any conceivable implementation was horribly unwieldy thanks to the physical tokens used in financial transactions. But during the great depression some towns did implement this currency system, in spite of the unwieldiness!

      However these days, it would be DEAD SIMPLE to implement. It's dead simple to make a $100 in a bank account, become $90 by the end of the year. It can be done every minute to avoid the problem of people trying to make a transaction at the last moment so someone else suffers the demmurage charge.

      Note while there are superficial similarities between inflation and demmurage, there are also serious differences. The most noteworthy one is that demmurage does not obfuscate, if you have $100 tucked away at the start of the year, and it's $90 at the end of the year, you know exactly what's going on. In contrast say, with having $100 which becomes $105 with a real value of $98...

      But another critical difference is that whoever manages the currency has direct control over the demmurage rate. Obviously raising the demmurage rate directly increases the velocity of money (people want to spend their money asap) and perhaps investment (it doesn't have to be spent on frivolous things), but like high inflation, high demmurage would be an inconvenience, and rates which are too high would force hand-to-mouth living and hamper investment.
      In a fiat state-managed currency, the demmurage would act as a kind of tax - a tax on holding money. Because the demmurage charge has to go somewhere, the gov would just spend it on social services.
      Last edited by Blake; November 24, 2007, 21:41.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Blake
        "Human behavior is economic behavior."
        I knew it was only a matter of time before someone would quote Nwabudike Morgan. If there should ever be a remake of Alpha Centauri I hope Blake gets to ghostwrite both "The Centauri Monopoly" and "The Ethics of Greed".

        Seriously, this is a fascinating thread. Please excuse the interjection - I simply couldn't resist - and keep going.

        Comment


        • Blake, on a moral level, I view the deliberate implementation of a demurrage system as a form of theft, using claims of public good as an excuse to steal money from people who would rather save than spend but want to keep their risk to a minimum. Even if the money would be destroyed rather than seized by government, the result would still be theft because government would have to keep issuing new money to replace money lost to demurrage, and demurrage would increase the value of the new money at the expense of savers.

          (Note that I regard any tax that is designed specifically to target particular categories of people for the benefit of the rest of society as essentially a form of theft. If a particular type of behavior creates increased risks or costs to the rest of society, I consider it reasonable to tax the behavior to offset the risks or costs. But deliberate decisions to tax particular types of behavior beyond what can be defended as reasonable to offset risks or costs are essentially a type of theft, using people's behavior as an excuse to take money from them for the benefit of others.)

          And from a practical perspective, trying to use a demurrage system to protect fisheries is like trying to swat a fly with a cannon. It would cause huge amounts of collateral damage, and wouldn't necessarily even hit the target. A demurrage system would create pressure for people to invest money in buying stocks or commodities directly instead of putting their money in a bank and letting the people who borrow from the bank decide the best way to use the money. But nothing would stop fishing corporations from using money from investors to kill fish at a much higher rate than is sustainable.

          In the meantime, a demurrage system would drive up interest rates because borrowers would be forced to pay a high enough interest rate to cover the cost of demurrage. It would be harder for people to borrow money to start or expand businesses, and harder for people to borrow money so they can buy homes instead of renting. And while the higher interest rates would discourage people from borrowing money for frivolous reasons, it would also cause significant harm to people who decide to borrow anyhow: a real "the poor get poorer" type of effect.

          There are much more effective and efficient ways of dealing with problems such as overfishing. Out of what I can think of offhand, the most efficient would probably be to figure out how many fish can be caught and still have reproduction replace the loss, and then auction off licenses good for particular numbers of fish caught in particular areas, while at the same time requiring safeguards against the killing of immature fish. This type of approach can limit consumption of resources in a carefully targeted way that does snot cause collateral damage to the rest of the economy.

          Comment


          • nbarclay, you said that "All tax is theft". What's your thoughts on fractional reserve banking? I know that if fractional reserve banking is explained in terms understandable* to lay people, the banker will be perceived as the villain in the story, someone who is using the banked money in a way which is unexpected by those who bank it.

            * explained accurately, also.

            Comment


            • Taxes are necessary to support a government-which is needed to maintain stability and provide law and order. If you dont like paying taxes, then stop accepting the benefits of the taxes aswell. That said, some taxes such as the USA IRS are not even taxes and outright illegal.

              Dont reply with anything longer than what i just wrote
              if you want to stop terrorism; stop participating in it

              ''Oh,Commissar,if we could put the potatoes in one pile,they would reach the foot of God''.But,replied the commissar,''This is the Soviet Union.There is no God''.''Thats all right'' said the worker,''There are no potatoes''

              Comment


              • Property is theft. Taxation is just a political method of taking all that senseless theft and trying to make some sort of sensible order from the chaos.

                Regards,
                Adam Weishaupt

                Comment


                • As a general rule, there is one critical difference between big, cumbersome corporate bureaucracies and big, cumbersome government bureaucracies. Corporate bureaucracies operate in a competitive environment where they have to keep up with what their competitors are doing or face a serious danger of losing market share or possibly going out of business. In many cases, when corporate bureaucracies become stagnant, they are shaken out of their stagnation by threats from competitors. In others, older corporations fade into irrelevance as more efficient competitors keep eating up more and more of their market share. So even though corporate bureaucracies can be just as cumbersome and inefficient as government bureaucracies, the free market tends to limit how much damage poorly run bureaucracies can cause - especially in the long term.

                  In contrast, when governments create bureaucracies to solve problems, they tend to give the bureaucracies so much power that it is impossible for anyone outside the bureaucracies to provide anything resembling fair competition. This destroys the mechanism the free market normally provides to force bureaucracies that are not performing adequately to change or be displaced in favor of organizations that perform better. In situations where it is not practical to have multiple companies compete, it is debatable whether a government monopoly or a private monopoly is likely to be more wasteful and inefficient. But where competition is practical, the long-term performance of a free market is almost always significantly better than the long-term performance of a government bureaucracy because a free market is not limited by the performance of any single bureaucracy.

                  One of the clearest examples of the problem with government bureaucracies is the way that even the worst of America's public schools can remain in operation for years, even decades. If a private school performed as badly relative to its operating cost as the worst public schools do, either it would be driven out of business by competition, or it would be bought out by new owners who have a specific plan for how they think they can improve it enough to make it competitive. But because the only way families can choose anything other than public schools is to pay for their children's education out of their own pockets instead of having government pay the cost, even the worst of public schools can often stay in operation for long periods of time, with students forced to attend merely because their families live in the wrong part of town and are unable or unwilling to pay the cost of private alternatives.

                  It is not completely impossible to have a mechanism in which production facilities are owned by government but operate as independent entities. But there are a number of problems with such mechanisms. One is making sure successful enterprises have the money they need to expand to meet the demand for their products or services. Otherwise, a lot of people will be stuck with inferior products or services because there are not enough better products or services to go around. Another problem is how to provide adequate accountability without interfering with the organizations' independence. I have yet to see a solution to these problems that can even come close to matching the combination of flexibility and accountability that a free enterprise system provides.

                  This is not to say that I believe in leaving everything up to the free market. Government has several important roles in making sure the economic system serves everyone, not just the people who are best at playing the free enterprise game. And there are a few things that a free market is not good at because the benefits are impractical or impossible to turn into profit.

                  1) Government needs to protect consumers against things along the lines of (a) deceptive business practices, (b) practices that seek to increase profits by undermining competition, (c) dangers of sellers taking unfair advantage of consumers' lack of knowledge, (d) mechanisms for determining compensation for corporate executives that do not give stockholders a fair opportunity to decide that they would rather hire different executives who are willing to work cheaper. The same kind of logic could also be used to justify restricting short-term trading of stock and commodities on the basis that the purpose of such deals is almost invariably to gain profit at the expense of other traders who are less good at dealing with market fluctuations, not to make money by investing in ways that genuinely benefit others.

                  2) Government needs to limit the degree to which competition to lower prices can make it impossible for unskilled workers to earn enough to have decent living conditions in exchange for working a reasonable number of hours. Note that there is a limit to how much can be achieved with minimum wages and similar mandates because past a certain point, employers can't find enough jobs that are worth what government would require them to pay to keep everyone working. Past that point, attempts to increase the minimum standard of living farther need to focus either on income subsidies or on finding a way to put people the private sector doesn't consider worth hiring to work on some kind of public projects. Paying people to sit idle because no one considers it worthwhile to hire them is not only wasteful but also destructive to the fabric of society because of the sense of entitlement it creates.

                  This role of making sure everyone has what they need can reasonably extend into public financing in areas such as education and health care. But the need for tax funding does not justify using tax dollars as leverage to destroy people's freedom to choose which schools, teachers, doctors, or hospitals they believe will serve them best. A system that offers benefits only to people who give up important freedoms, and that forces people who keep their freedoms to pay for tax-funded services they are not able to benefit from because they refused to surrender their freedoms, is fundamentally unfair.

                  3) Government needs to intervene in situations where activities that make some people better off create indirect or long-term costs that will harm others. Environmental issues are one of the best examples of this type of situation, since pollution and depletion of resources affect a lot more people than just the ones who make and buy products.

                  4) Governments can play valuable roles in promoting progress in science and the arts. Copyright and patent protections are not, strictly speaking, part of a free market because in a completely unrestricted free market, anyone would be free to copy anything. Rather, the legitimate purpose of copyright and patent laws is to provide a reasonable (but not excessive) incentive for people to spend time developing ideas that they believe others will find valuable.

                  Governments can also play a valuable role in funding research directly, either to make sure the results of the research are in the public domain rather than tied up in patents, or because the value of the research is too indirect or long-term to interest private sector investment.

                  ----

                  There are likely some other things where governments can play useful roles that I'm not thinking of offhand. But I hope I've said enough to make it clear that while I view the free market as a valuable force in helping to make good products and services available at reasonable prices, I recognize that there are limitations in what it can accomplish, and that beyond those limits, government can play valuable roles.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Blake
                    nbarclay, you said that "All tax is theft". What's your thoughts on fractional reserve banking? I know that if fractional reserve banking is explained in terms understandable* to lay people, the banker will be perceived as the villain in the story, someone who is using the banked money in a way which is unexpected by those who bank it.

                    * explained accurately, also.
                    I did not say anything even close to the words, "All tax is theft." There is an entire category of taxation - taxes paid by people across the entire spectrum of society for the benefit of society as a whole - that I did not call into question at all.

                    To further clarify my position, I am not even against all efforts to use government money to help the disadvantaged. On the contrary, when efforts to help the disadvantaged have broad-based support from across the entire spectrum of society, including the people who will pay most of the cost, I am inclined to support them as long as they follow sound economic principles and don't go too far in facilitating irresponsible behavior.

                    The type of taxation that I regard as theft has more selfish motives. Most of the support for the taxes comes either from people who expect to gain more in benefits than they will have to pay in taxes, or from people who want government to do things they consider good but want to shift as much of the cost as they can onto other people's shoulders. The first type of situation involves an attitude almost identical to that of a thief: "I want what you have, and I intend to take it if I can get away with it." The attitude behind the second is not quite the attitude of the usual thief, but it is very similar: "I want money to pay for this program, but instead of sharing in the sacrifice to help, I'll make you pay most or all of the cost."

                    Regarding your question about the fractional reserve system in banking, I think you're missing a critical piece of the puzzle. The ability to lend out a large percentage of the money people deposit in banks is what pays for most, and in some cases all, of banks' expenses in hiring tellers, operating ATM machines, processing checks, and so forth. The credit union I'm a member of even pays me a little bit of interest on the money I have deposited. If banking institutions just kept the money people deposit in their vaults, they would have to charge storage fees and transaction fees to pay for their services. So I think the only people who object to the system are generally people who understand enough about how it works to see how it benefits the banks, but not enough to see how it also benefits depositors.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Adam Weishaupt
                      Property is theft. Taxation is just a political method of taking all that senseless theft and trying to make some sort of sensible order from the chaos.
                      If you make a chair and I grow some corn, and I trade some of my corn for your chair, where is the theft? The chair is my property, but I see no rational basis for claiming that any kind of theft was involved.

                      Now consider what happens if, instead of trading my corn for a chair, I trade it for an axe. Does the fact that I traded for an axe rather than a chair magically make what I did theft?

                      I then use my axe to chop down trees, and when a neighbor sees me using it, he offers to trade me something to chop down trees for him. Before long, I am making a living using my axe to chop down trees for people who don't have axes because people are willing to trade me more for my work chopping down trees than they did for my previous work growing corn. How am I stealing anything?

                      After a while, I can afford a second axe, so I make a deal with someone else to help me chop down trees. Since he is using an axe I traded for, we divide the proceeds of his work so that I get some benefit from allowing him to use my second axe, and he is still better off than he was doing the kind of work he did previously. So I'm better off; he's better off; and the people we chop trees for are better off. Where have I stolen anything?

                      Eventually, I keep trading until I have dozens of axes and dozens of tree-choppers working for me - all of them better off than they would have been if they didn't have a chance to use my axes. Some of the people who started off using my axes have even bought their own axes, reaping the benefit of owning an axe instead of having to use one of mine. In the meantime, trees are being chopped a lot more efficiently, making the people who want trees chopped better off. Where is the theft?

                      This type of use of property to increase production, which in turn enables the acquisition of more property, which in turn enables further increases in production, and so on, is the essence of capitalism. It is what has enabled us to move from a culture in which almost everyone had to work on farms to keep society fed to a society where only a tiny fraction of people are needed to work on farms, and where we don't even need all of the people who aren't working on farms to work in factories instead. If you compare the standard of living of the poor in America today with the standard of living of the poor in Karl Marx's time, there can be no rational doubt that the poor have shared enormously in the benefits of capitalism. The only thing that has been stolen from them is their opportunity to do backbreaking work for subsistence wages because the tools aren't available to do any better.

                      The claim that property is theft is really just an excuse for a person who doesn't have an axe to steal an axe from a person who has worked hard and invested carefully in order to acquire two axes, or perhaps whose parents worked hard and invested carefully in order to be able to buy him two axes.

                      Comment


                      • (Note that I regard any tax that is designed specifically to target particular categories of people for the benefit of the rest of society as essentially a form of theft. If a particular type of behavior creates increased risks or costs to the rest of society, I consider it reasonable to tax the behavior to offset the risks or costs. But deliberate decisions to tax particular types of behavior beyond what can be defended as reasonable to offset risks or costs are essentially a type of theft, using people's behavior as an excuse to take money from them for the benefit of others.)
                        So what you are saying is that the only fair forms of taxes are "User Pays" taxes? Where those who use the public system, pay for it in proportion towards use. And where those who buy harmful products, pay extra to offset that harm?
                        (excuse me if I'm putting words in your mouth, but it does seem like that's what you're saying).

                        I admit that roads users tax / fuel tax, does work for like the transport system. But how do you pay for a military (and lumping in natural disaster response with that), without a theft style tax? And do you actually condone the USA style health system?

                        Lets take an excellent example. People who are born with a genetic illness which requires somewhat expensive treatment (but not so expensive that it's genuinely tempting to say "Just kill them"). Is it FAIR to burden them and their family with the full costs of paying for that, when their behavior cannot be faulted any more than any other persons? Is it fair to make someone who already suffers and will always suffer more than any normal person, through no fault of their own, to personally suffer yet more just trying to get some semblance of health?
                        And if you decide it's not fair and that all non self-destructive people should have the basic right to health, how do you fairly tax society to pay for it?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Unimatrix11

                          On Marx - i still dont think you read him and therefore should refrain from critizism. What did he not understand and write about ?
                          The argument that Marx’s work should not be criticised without reading can equally be used about those here who are critical of the modern financial system. It has always been a truism in life that “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing” and this seems to be apparent here.

                          Much of the criticism seems to centre on examples that bear little relation to real situations or reflect wider issues that are not due to a failure of the financial system (eg environmental damage, fish stocks, wars, fair-trade). These are part of a wider debate and flaws in the bigger picture are not a result of the financial system which has produced vast wealth and improvements to all of us.

                          Let me first start by mapping what I see as the key steps in financial techniques

                          1) Currency

                          This marks the point in time where goods did not have to be traded in whole amounts for other goods (a system of barter). The farmer bringing a cow to market did have to search around for someone who wanted a cow and who also had something that the farmer wanted in exchange. From this point there was an agreed exchange system from the produce to the currency which could easily be used by the farmer to sell the cow and then by a range of products and services in the local market place.

                          I hope that we are all agreed that this is a good thing.


                          2) Paper currency

                          This marked to point at which currency ceased to be represented by valuable metals but instead was replaced by a guarantee from the issuer (effectively the state) to pay that sum of money to the holder of the paper. From this point, the amount of currency in the economy could expand beyond the amount of precious metal that was in the economy.

                          When we look at large investment opportunities we can see this as being a good thing because it allowed investments which prior to that time, would not have been possible due to the physical lack of gold. Also, large amounts of money were easy to move around or store.

                          3) Banking

                          In essence, this development allowed people who had certain assets to acquire currency with the promise to pay it back. It meant that they did not have to sell their assets to get the money but instead used that asset as a security for the borrowed money. This money could then be invested in other things which would provide more than enough to pay the interest costs.

                          Banking also created a mechanism for creating money since banks act as intermediaries between a large number of borrowers and a large number of lenders.

                          This interest cost seems to be the big stumbling block for most of you. Why I cannot understand because interest is simply the mechanism which controls the supply of money (those willing to lend) and the demand (those willing to pay). To say that interest is wrong is like saying it is wrong to charge money for bread or almost that gravity is wrong. Why there is some philosophical problem with this I do not know but if there is, it is because people fail to understand what interest represents or why it exists. Maybe I am missing the point here because the empiricist in me can see why it exists and what purposes it serves.

                          Maybe I should introduce my own scenario which introduces a state ban on interest (or anything that can be expressed as a payment for the supply of money). Now I don’t suppose many of you can imagine what the world would be like in this situation – I certainly can’t – but it is presumably easy to see that if interest was set at zero, nobody would be willing to lend any money. So there would be no lending or borrowing unless the state forced those who owned money to supply it – which sounds to me like theft. Short of a single world order, this seems to me a recipe for all of the money in a local economy to move elsewhere.

                          I looked at the article on demurrage currency and this is nothing more than either a storage cost or a tax on wealth. Unless there was some obvious benefit in buying this currency, I doubt it would have much appeal to most people apart from for very short periods. In a twist on the “pass the parcel” game, you are trying to get rid of the currency as soon as you get any of it so any exchange rate with a real currency is going to be used instantly thus forcing down the value of the currency until it is worthless. Blake thinks that demurrage and inflation are different things. I believe they are effectively the same.

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                          • Originally posted by Blake
                            Is it FAIR to burden them and their family with the full costs of paying for that, when their behavior cannot be faulted any more than any other persons? Is it fair to make someone who already suffers and will always suffer more than any normal person, through no fault of their own, to personally suffer yet more just trying to get some semblance of health?
                            "Life isn't fair, highness. Anyone who tells you differently is selling something."

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                            • This better get back to being civ related, or it's going to be moved to the OTF where this kind of discussion belongs
                              Keep on Civin'
                              RIP rah, Tony Bogey & Baron O

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                              • Hey... the issues of capitalism are very related to Civ
                                Solver, WePlayCiv Co-Administrator
                                Contact: solver-at-weplayciv-dot-com
                                I can kill you whenever I please... but not today. - The Cigarette Smoking Man

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