[BTS]Vassals & their masters.

[popej]

Apologies if I've posted this in the wrong place

Of all the new game concepts added in BTS this is my least favourite. I'm sure many of you have gone through the same thing I'm about to describe and some of you probably think its as frustrating as I do.

I'm playing on Monarch difficulty as the yanks and its very late game. I'm in second place in terms of score behind (yes you guessed it!) Mao of the Chinese. His score is more than twice mine :/

This isn't the annoying thing though, the annoying thing is that he has 7 vassals of the 15 remaining civs on the map. There are 2 civs who are independent and the rest are vassals of other civs.

So perhaps I was a bit late and should have enslaved some rubbish civs earlier in the game. I am playing with conquest as the only victory condition after all.

Anyway my question.... How the hell are you supposed to conduct any military campaign against anyone when declaring war on one feeble low-end civ will result in half of the planet declaring war on you?

How am I supposed to undo all these vassalties? Is it even possible or is it a case of once they're vassals they're the only ones who can denounce it?

This is a very frustrating game mechanic that really should have an on/off switch or at the very least some type of ingame mechanic, perhaps using a spy that allows you to overthrow a vassalty/sow the seeds of dissent amongst an enslaved nation.

Thanks.

[wodan11]

If they're "feeble low-end" civs then they don't add much to China's military might.

What this means is that Mao beat you to the punch. If your strategy is to swallow up the little guys, then it won't work anymore. Your next opponent will either have to be one of the remaining independent powers, which are presumably fairly strong, or else you have to take on Mao. You could attack Mao and go head-to-head, or you could take out one or more of his vassals (you just have to be prepared to defend against Mao who will surely counterattack while you're hitting the vassal).

Wodan

[Quillan]

The concept of Vassals was introduced in Warlords, and worked the same way then. If I remember correctly, the vassal has a couple of outs. If he ever grows to the point where he controls half the land area of the master he can break the agreement, and if he gets reduced to less than half the land area he had when he agreed to become a vassal of the master he can break the agreement.

In my last game, it wasn't quite as extreme as your situation, but I had Boudica collecting vassals and declaring war on me every so often. I'd declare war on her later on, strip one of the vassals of territory until he'd break the vassalage agreement, then make peace with the former vassal. A couple of times it worked. Once the vassal broke free but immediately became vassal to Boudica again, and once they never broke free and had to be eliminated.

Part of the reason for the score is that the master gets a bonus; he can count the territory controlled by the vassals as his own. I don't know if you have the military might to take them all on at once, but if you left conquest as the only option, you might as well get to it.

[snoopy369]

You can turn off vassals in a game creation option. Just "Play Custom Game" instead of "Play Now", it's one of the options there.

[jnh140]

When civs allow themselves to be vassalized is a little strange. Sometimes, they capitulate and give into any demand (except cities, ive never seen a civ in any civ game give up a city in trade) after a minor border skirmish and a loss of maybe 25% of their territory. Othertimes, i've had them on the rocks for decades, and have driven them to the absolute limits. One city remaining... capitulate? NEVAR

I Love Vassalizing. To be honest, it has breathed new life into the game for me. I HATE it when a civ i've cultivated as a life-long friend asks to become a vassal of my arch-enemy. But it goes with the territory, i suppose. Still a little uncomfortable about tech brokering between my vassal and the ai though.


I do wish the protectorate\capitulation deal was a different. When you ask to be a protectorate, they should retain some extra rights; but once they capitulate, they should basically be yours to whip into further submission.

[DirtyMartini]

Originally posted by jnh140
Sometimes, they capitulate and give into any demand (except cities, ive never seen a civ in any civ game give up a city in trade)

Really? I've never had anyone give up a meaningful city, but sometimes, when they're on the verge of destruction, I can get them to give up a far flung island or other city disconnected from their main territory. This saves me having to send the fleet out after the inevitable redeclaration 10 turns later.

DM

[wodan11]

I just had Khmer give me a city. It was a barb city. Khmer walks from the other side of my empire to take them out, then I guess they came to their senses and realized the maintenance costs were killer, so they gave the city to me. Quite a nice city, too, and the maintenance for me was nothing. (It was right next to my capitol.)

Wodan

[realpolitic]

Vassalage does cut down on the number of military targets, so it's best to limit wars after most civs have hooked up. Maybe an agressive beginning followed by a commerce/culture strategy later. At that point be pickier about the wars you fight.

Attacking an civ with no allies (fellow vassals or the master nearby) might also be a good plan.

This does take the wind out of my militarism, too, I'm a bit disappointed. Maybe there's a file we can change.

[unamablebuiler]

Right now I am doing a similar thing but I have a lead in technology a fairly big one tanks+bombers to rifles.

I am reducing the master civ (vikings) that has 2 vassals one of which on his continent (Americans + zulus) and nearly got to the point where they will have both land and pop over the 50 percent of the master civ. I am on my own continent having had the french destroyed by barbarians from great wall.

How much difference in size anf tech levels between you and the chinese? If you are smaller lower tech its probably worth it going after a remote vassal rather than china herself.

Also maintain a strategic reserve of units on your land to repel invasions of 50+ units at all times. It is likely the chinese will land directly on your lands rather than aid thier vassal. the vasal tends to gift units to the mast in my experince.

[Hobie819]

I love the vassalage option.

I was throughly confused last game though when India volunteered to be my vassal. It wasn't that that confused me though, it was when he won the UN election (against me?) and tried to get himself a diplomatic victory.

A.) wth? He's my vassal, how can he even be allowed to go against me in a worldwide election since he's considered mine?

B.) If he had won the diplomatic vote (I had enough votes to effectively ensure he didn't win), would I have technically won it?

That's the only thing that I've raised my eyebrows at for more than a few minutes in my CIV playing...

[popej]

So if I'm understanding this correctly. If you can significantly reduce either the vassal or masters territory through conquest you can break their agreement?

Thanks for pointing out the fact that you can turn it off btw.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by popej
So if I'm understanding this correctly. If you can significantly reduce either the vassal or masters territory through conquest you can break their agreement?

If you hover the mouse over the vassal's name, it will tell you he's a Vassal of X, with some % of territory to get free, or some % of population to do the same. The Civopedia will give you more detail on how it works.

Wodan

[marvinkosh]

I ran into this situation with a Warlords game I played a while back. When you're up against a kingpin and all his minions, you have to do a lot of damage with your opening moves. You also need to consider how best to disrupt his transport network so that his units and the units of his allies can't easily cross into your territory next turn, and have units standing by to bust up any stacks which do make a play for your lands.

It also can't hurt to make use of a cease fire to get your troops healed and re-positioned for another assault.

[Yaga]

I was really hoping for some late-game mechanic in BTS that ended vassalage.

It always seems odd to me to have Emancipation for all your citizens...but not those client states full of enfeoffed chattel who're still bound to the oaths of their fore bearers, made countless generations (and who knows how many government changes) ago.

[Fleme]

I quite like the entire vassal thingy. I've noticed that in nearly every game there's an AI who willingly offers him/herself as a vassal to a predominant power and more often than not does this when it would otherwise probably be receiving a good ol' whupping from another party. For example, if I have a religion that I haven't been able to spread to the bulk of AI's but have still gotten a relatively weak AI under my influence and I'm relatively high on the score and said AI is my neighbor, they will very often offer themselves as vassals. This is very dependant on the AI, though, and I've noticed that personalities such as Hannibal, Alexander, Isabella (yes, Isabella), Suryavarman, Mehmed and the like are the ones who will offer themselves as Vassals without having lost a war. Seeing that the AI also vassalizes these weak nations without ever going to war I'm just going to guess that it's quite common. (In one of my games there's Saladin who switches allegiance as the leader of the game changes. He has been vassal to 5 different people and has never lost or gained anything in any war, he just likes to serve I guess.)

Now, Vassals are good for naturally supplying you with resources as we all know and I just consider them to be my satellite states much like the soviet states were post-WWII; serving as military buffers and doing your bidding. There's 0 maintenance costs for the cities and you can ask for anything and most of the time they will oblige. If they refuse you can just take one of their cities and bring them back to the fold (some AI's don't take vassalization that well, I've noticed).

Later on in the game I consider them to be my states with limited independence. Babylonian Republic of France, Ethiopia, State of China and the like. There are so many different ways in which you can use your vassals, including tech benefits and the aforemention war-time buffer. I've also had my Vassals actively take part in wars, given that I've let them to have a functional state instead of just some remote islands with no production or resources.

Long story short: I do enjoy Vassals. They allow me to build an empire that is not as clear-cut as it used to be and allows me to secure sections of the map and make sure that atleast someone is loyal to me (as long as my army is keeping an eye on them).