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I can't quite wrap my brain around this concept.

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  • I can't quite wrap my brain around this concept.

    Why on Earth does a chariot not receive a negative to operating in forests and hills? It is an open area weapon designed for fast strikes and flanking. Further more, what makes it so spiffy against axemen? Sure, there is game balance and making a unit have meaning beyond its name, but there is such a thing as internal concistancy.

    In my mind, and I must admit my mind is a rather damaged place, Chariots should (as should any cavalry type unit)
    A: receive a negative bonus when operating in hills, jungle, or forest

    B. Receive a bonus to any melee unit caught out in the open, axeman, swordsman, what ever. This bonus should also be closer to 25 percent, and not 50.

    C. Any cavalry or motorized (tanks, mech infantry, etc) unit should have at least a 10 percent chance to retreat, minimal. I am not entirely sure how this works, but the idea is based off a roll at the point of death. If made, unit retreates, last damage negated (or unit dropped to .1 or something), else unit killed.

    D. All infantry (firearm+ era) should get a hills/forest bonus. If infantry take the high ground or forests/hills/mountains/cities, they can be dogs to dig out.

    E. Armor should have a negative when operating in city and hamlet/town/etc environments. Either way you look at it, the battleground is an urban place which infantry should rule. I mean, tankers love city fights.

    F. Armor should recieve a bonus to attack any thing that isn't other armor or aircraft. Hopefully, the city/hill/jungle/forest bonuses in infantry will offset this somewhat. I have been disappointed that cavalry and musketmen should be so effected on a one 1vs1 basis against armor. It just ain't right, especially so for cavalry. Armor aginst Cav in the open should be so much dog food.

    G. AND THE WEIRD ONE. What if tanks were treated as direct attack artillery. Now, I know how artie works now, but what if tanks worked in a similar fashion. The following is some of my reasoning/thinking.
    1. Armor in and by itself cannot hold territory. Smash through and enemy line, destroy hard points, and give the enemy a pucker factor 9.5. It's mobility and ability to investigate all the noocks and crannies prevents it from controlling a large area, especially so in urban warfare. You need warm bodies for this.

    2. So make tanks more like siege equipment or planes. They attack, do damage, but to a single unit, not the stack. If the tanks wins the fight (the point where a siege unit would withdraw because it "won") it drives the enemy back instead of retreating. The tank would only retreat if there was more than one unit in the square (a stack). Since the tank only damages on a 1:1 ratio it can only drive back one unit. If the square is vacant after the battle, the tank adances into it. A tank may attack (blitz) so long as it has movement.

    3. To destroy units damaged by armor assault one then would move in with infantry of some type. Preferably Mech, which I would give blitzing ability to as well (if they don't already have it.)

  • #2
    A: First, cavalry already do have "no defensive bonuses." Second, cavalry other than chariots would have no effect from hills. Third, if you were to give cavalry a penalty from forests/ jungles, then you should also throw in armor, archers, and gunpowder. The latter 2 are because they can't shoot as far.

    B: 25% is little effect. It would also disbalance the axe again. The chariot would be 5 vs. 5 with the axe. 50% vs. all melee is disbalance to the chariot. The current bonus vs. axes is good.

    C: The do (or at leats most). The retreat odds do decrease as the victory odds go up.

    D: All Infantry do get a bonus in forest/hills/jungle/cities.

    E: Tanks are often used to protect troops in close combat and often have a machine gun or 2 of their own for close combat.

    F: so you don't think tanks are strong enough?

    G: too complex
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    • #3
      Why on Earth does a chariot not receive a negative to operating in forests and hills?


      It does: it gets reduced to 1 move in them, and gains no defensive bonus.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Kuciwalker
        Why on Earth does a chariot not receive a negative to operating in forests and hills?


        It does: it gets reduced to 1 move in them, and gains no defensive bonus.
        Or, the effect shows up not as a negative to the Chariot, but as a bonus to the defense of whatever unit (except other mounted units) is in the forest or hills.
        Consul.

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        • #5
          So this is to movement only and not combat? Seems to me that if you have a combat unit whose primary advantage is technically based off movement (the pre-cavalry charge it would seem) should also have it's combat ability reduced. Either this or remove the ability to withdraw in from combat in these terrain types.

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          • #6
            What are you not reading about defensive bonuses?

            In plains:

            Chariot: 4, 6 vs Axe
            Sword: 6, Axe 5, Spear 8
            Ratio: CvSw .66, CvA 1.2, CvSp 0.5

            In forest:
            Chariot: 4, 6 vs Axe
            Sword: 9, Axe 7.5, Spear 10
            Ratio: CvSw 0.44, CvA 0.8, CvS 0.4

            Clearly the chariot has a significant disadvantage in forest.

            In 'wrapping your brain around' game concepts - Try not to think about "realism". Nothing in Civ is realistic. Every choice is made to be a fun game to play; anything that is realistic is a side note.

            Chariots get a bonus against axe (only) because Axes were too powerful when the game was first released as they had no counter, so everyone built only axes and catapults. Weakening chariots makes axes more powerful again, which would not help things at all
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