Vassal Schmassal!

[jnh140]

So for the last couple evenings i'd been having a lovely game. My expansive empire, glorious economy, and corporate monopolies had really set the game in my favor.

To go with my sid's and mining inc, I demanded all of the metal\fishy resources from my vassals-- all of whom had declared war on me, and quickly found themselves at the unfriendly end of a pike (well, long-range bombers).

Well, I had recently regifted some cities taken in the war back to gilgamesh-- vassalized by capitulation. He was still WELL below the 50% break-free level. Demanding some of the iron the regifted city was mining, however, was bad news bears. He declared war.

He declared war, lost, and capitulated! He is now the Robin to my Batman! Hes supposed to be my personal Mousseoweenie! I thought they were completely unable to break the agreement in capitulation! Has this ever happened to anyone else?

[jkp1187]

It's never happened to me, but I know that it's theoretically possible for a vassal to get tired of your demands and just declare independence....

I guess it isn't "theoretical" anymore!

[joncnunn]

Personally I find it much safer to just give the vasal some extra resource you have (that they don't) in exchange for their one and only resource you don't have.

[realpolitic]

Absolutely!

They'll fight on my side when I declare war on another, why not be nice. I even give away my trashiest cities to them.

I ask them how much for a map - 30 gold or so, I give it. The services they provide are worth 100x that!

[guermantes]

Originally posted by realpolitic
The services they provide are worth 100x that!

What are those services?

For me I only take vassals when there is risk that they otherwise hook up with my opponent. Typically I want to grab some of their cities rather than vassalising them, but end up doing so when they ask so they don't go to the other guy instead. It follows that I just think they are a nuicance. You can't even rely on them to give you a fish if you need it.

[jnh140]

I like to vassalize rather than take cities when the civ is on the cultural border of an rival-and-future target.

Shaka had something against me in my current game, so I obliterated him, vassalized him on his far-flung islands. Saladin was getting ready to flip his cities though, so I gifted them back to shaka. Made pushing into saladin's territory that much easier.

[wodan11]

Keep in mind you can have one colony per continent... so often I simply conquer my enemies (even if I don't have any long term intention of keeping most or all of their cities -- I'd just as soon not raze them because some other AI will move into the void) and then I create a colonial vassal.

A colony is better than having a subjugated vassal, as you get +10 on relations with them, and they'll gladly give you any and all resources. Especially if you toss them some bones such as "extra" resources you have lying around, like Copper and such which they value through the roof even late game. And, they'll gladly trade their only rice for an extra cow you have.

Wodan

[DirtyMartini]

I think the issue isn't so much "can I take all of civ X's cities then turn them into a colony?" as it is "can I take all of civ X's cities before he vassalizes to (powerful enemy) civ Y, or should I vassalize civ X now instead".

Although, if the answer to the second question is yes, then wodan's idea sounds good -- I hadn't ever thought of doing that on my home continent. I've saved colonies for big islands/island chains mostly.

DM

[jnh140]

will my vassals tech broker like normal or do they not maintain normal diplomatic relations with other civs? I can usually bully them into trading techs with me, but never watched the log carefully enough to tell if they were trading with eachother.

[gdijedi7]

I made a colony out of Roosevelt and asked for one of his two oils, and he wouldn't give it to me...

[famousguy]

well historically speaking it is possible (decleration of Independence= Revolutionary war) but in CIV maybe not, it has happened to me before with the chinese, i was one city away from conquering them and Qin shi huang gave me a visit and i decided to take him in. but then after a few turns and he built a few cities then declared war on me! but i still had a few mechanized infantry left and he was still in remeisamce, so i obliterated and won conquest victory.

[realpolitic]

Originally posted by guermantes


What are those services?

For me I only take vassals when there is risk that they otherwise hook up with my opponent. Typically I want to grab some of their cities rather than vassalising them, but end up doing so when they ask so they don't go to the other guy instead. It follows that I just think they are a nuicance. You can't even rely on them to give you a fish if you need it.

Declaring war on your enemy, not declaring war on you. I've also taken cities that had mediocreh land, (too much tundra). I had the most territory of anyone, size 1, so I "liberated" those cities to Greece, which instantly got 2 phalanxes each (in the early game), freeing up my troops there. My new vassal is next to my main rival, who would have otherwise irly earlbeen too dangerous to attack until much later. Because my enemy capitulated fairly early, we now have plenty of units to attack with.

Vassalage is one of the changes in civ4 that keeps it from being as repetitive as civ3. Just be opportunistic.

[Yosho]

Vassels just seem to never be worth it, although it can perhaps be better then letting a rival vasselise them. The thing that really drives me crazy about vassles is the hit to diplomacy with other powers; I mean, why is that? Why to they get more upset by me vassasiling someone then by me just conquering all their cities?

With the hit to deplomacy and the gold cost, it just dosn't seem worth it. Even on another continent; the colonial costs only go crazy high if you have a lot of cities on that continent, so it seems like the best way is to keep some cities on that continent for yourself and raze the rest.

[Kuciwalker]

Vassels just seem to never be worth it, although it can perhaps be better then letting a rival vasselise them. The thing that really drives me crazy about vassles is the hit to diplomacy with other powers; I mean, why is that? Why to they get more upset by me vassasiling someone then by me just conquering all their cities?

Just one comment: it's vassal.

[wodan11]

With BtS vassals on other continents give rad trade route income to you. And since you get a +10 on relations with them, they won't cut you off as you get more powerful like the AIs (or humans) will.

Wodan