Do I necessarily need Wonders and Great people ?

[guermantes]

I seem to be able to win my games on Noble in BTS (continents/large/normal speed) so I have begun a game as Julius Caesar on Prince.

I am barely first in score, have good expansion space but AD 225 I realize that keeping up militarily and also developing the cities with the bare minimum such as monuments, granaries and libraries has left me out of reach trying to build any wonders.

Also I have never been good at generating GP, and in this game I don't have a single GP point generated anywhere wheras they are popping up at my neighbours quite often. I simply don't think I can afford the loss of tile produce in exchange for those GP points.

It also seems that all religions are being founded on that other continent that is way far away at this stage. None of my contacts has a state religion.

I've got good land and am ahead in score but I feel I will lose the game anyway due to these things, particularly the first two.

Am I just being ridiculous, or are my doubts reasonable?

[Kuciwalker]

No, you don't need wonders at all. In fact, you shouldn't build them without a good reason (e.g. you're industrious and/or have the right resources).

[Supr49er]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
No, you don't need wonders at all. In fact, you shouldn't build them without a good reason (e.g. you're industrious and/or have the right resources).

Absolutely. Try a game where you don't even think about Wonders. You will be surprised how large your army will be, and as a plus it will be easier to keep an eye on specializing your cities.

[guermantes]

Good to hear that I don't necessarily need wonders.

What about the Great Persons? Is the fact that I see that they are born a bit everywhere apart from in my civ a sign that I am falling behind in developing my civ?

[Asmodeous]

I find that sometimes the bonus outweighs the cost, regardless of resource or industriousness. for instance, if you find you are either alone on a big island or with a couple very distant civs, the 25 turns to build the wall without industrious or stone can be a godsend that will let you leverage yourself a sizeable lead before you have to go full on into military.

Hardly "necessary", but definately can pay itself off.

Me.

[gdgrimm]

Re: Do I necessarily need Wonders and Great people ?

Subject Line
Do I necessarily need Wonders and Great people ?

I would say "Pretty much", and "Definitely".

WW's aren't an absolute necessity, but intelligently choosing a few that will fit your plans is going to be a real boon. Of course, if you're Industrial, your "plans" should probably include a few more WW's than if you're not, otherwise you're not leveraging your trait effectively.

But I think that if you look at the competitive games of the Hall of Fame (or whatever), you'll find they all include some built WW's, or some WW's that we're taken as a primary goal of conquest.

So I think it's fair to say that you almost have to have a couple.

For GP's, I think the answer is a definite 'yes'. At lower difficulties, they're not really necessary, but around Prince+ knowing how to effectively generate the ones you want, and knowing how to use them to greatest benefit, starts becoming a near requirement if you hope to keep up with the AI bonuses.

[jbp26]

Re: Re: Do I necessarily need Wonders and Great people ?

Originally posted by gdgrimm

I would say "Pretty much", and "Definitely".

i have to disagree here- i would say "definitely not" and "definitely".

i can't think of a single wonder that has made a huge difference, and i definitely can't think of a single game that i would have won if not for a certain wonder. they're nice to have, but rarely worth building. you're almost always better off just taking them from your opponents. as a rule, i only build a wonder if i have the associated resource or am industrious. otherwise its too much of a resource commitment that would be better spent on military and expansion.

great people on the other hand, are indispensible in almost every regard. like gdgrimm said the higher the difficulty, the more important they become to stay competative.

[TriMiro]

I looked at your save, you have 3 gold and 2 silver resources and you are not working even one of them. Use those to get ahead in science and thus be the first to start (and finish) any wonder.

As for the GP, well I have found only limited use for them. The best is if I go early for the calendar and get the Mausoleum Wonder. Then every gold age is 12 turns and then I make sure I get at least 3 - 4 (5 with The Taj Mahal). That gives a HUGE advantage.

Even without the Mausoleum 5 golden ages can send you way ahead in the Tech tree.

It is true you should plan your wonders, don't build something that you are not going to use and you can get GP without wonders (maybe just the National Epic). Romans have the Forum boost too.

[Quillan]

There have been games where a wonder helped me greatly, like getting the Great Library when I'm not quite able to muster the top research percentage and it puts me over the top, or the Great Wall when it turns out I've got a huge chunk of bare land between me and my closest neighbor, but these have never really made the difference between winning and losing.

In fact, the only time I'd say a wonder actually won the game for me was once in a tight space race. I'd grabbed Rocketry and built the Apollo Program early on, then moved on a beeline for Fusion. However, there were enough other people close behind in tech who decided to split responsibilities and trade techs that they got everything else before I got to fusion. I finished the Internet shortly after I got fusion, and that put me over the top to winning the space race. Had I not gained the Internet, there's no way I would have been able to research all the other required techs and built the components depending on them before they'd managed to power through to fusion and built the engines.

I don't think you really need either wonders or great people, however they can certainly make things a lot easier for you.

[rah]

On a highland map the GW is quite usefull.

Otherwise most wonders are not necessary but can be helpful.
Slinging with oracle can be fun.
Pyramids is always useful if the game dictates it. (and it does deny it from the AI)
And I too, if the situation is right will try for 5 or 6 GAs so the Mausoleum can be quite useful.
Most can be fun but I keep thinking of all the troops they would translate to.
If I'm on an island and not as concerned with my army, I'll build a few more wonders, or If I have a big lead I'll build more just because I can.
But they're not necessary.

GP, I try to get unless my traits and my land make it non productive.

[Yosho]

Wonders are fairly well balanced; that is, if you build the right ones to fit your stratagy, they're good for the price, but you could probably do almost as well investing the hammers elsewhere.

As for great people; you don't need them, but they are quite useful. The key thing to remember is that the more great people you get, the more expensive they are; but it's definatly worthwhile to get at least 2 or 3 great scientists for acadamies in your big cities, and if you found a religion you want a shrine for it. After that, the value of extra great people drops off as the price of them goes up; they can still be worthwhile, but they're no longer necessary beyond that.

[Robert]

Only build wonders that give an advantage to your empire. It's as simple as that.
Different wonders for different strategies.

[Unimatrix11]

What did reverent Lovejoy say to Flanders: "Short positive answer with an "if", or long negative answer with a "but"..." ? (or vice versa - something along these lines anyway...