Worker: The thousanth told story

[Game-God]

I have to admit I am dubious about putting this thread up as it points out that my weakness in worker usage is extremely BIG.

I have played the Vanilla/Warlords/BTS versions since each came out and I still have some trouble with using workers properly. Furthermore I find that advise everyone gives freely sometimes has limited uses, since some of the ideas are Map/Level/Leader dependant in order to work. (you probably know what I mean by this)

So... with this in mind, lets assume for a moment that I know absolutely NOTHING about this game and would like some advise on the "Worker" in Civ 4, with all game functionality turned on normal at say Noble level, since that is the most equalized level of play.

And without Acronyms please as they are simply confusing sometimes and I do not want to go look them up in some darned dictionary...

Some basic questions here are (and not limited to them):

1) How do I (or anyone else) know where to have a worker build any given improvement such as Watermills, Roads(how many), Cottages -vs- Farms, Windmills(is there a use for these..Really)? I do not mean the basic "mines go on hils" but sometimes this is also a factor, isn't it?

2) "When" is it best to replace older improvements such as Mines with Windmills, or Farms/Cottages with Watermills? ie. How long should I wait to get the workers moving on these replacement types? After a certain amount of time?

3) Do you even bother using the advanced features like Watermills, Windmills? They seem to take a ton of time to (my time) to decide where and when to place these, and this only lengthens the already long game out by hours if I play without workers "automated". of course I hate to "automate anything since I have read here that I can do a better job my "human" self... (not sure I agree with this)...

4) As I said at the beginning I am confused with the workers usage and this encompases also the ty-in to things like the needs for commerce, food, hammers throughout the "Average" game. Is there a quick guide to reference for the worker usage available here at Apolyton? If not is there anyone qualified to even attempt writing one up, which allows for the different levels and map types of play.(maybe this is asking too much)?!?

I am sure I will have more pressing questions about this as things are posted in response here, and I am sure that there will be several different "strategies" involving the common worker folks.

If you have something to add here, please do, as I think this is my Biggest weak point to playing and is truely the defining factor for just about everything in the game(Teching and War are great, but without the serfs being manipulated properly the player is completely muffed).

Douglas

PS. I am sorry if this has been asked a few thousand times before, but I think a good posting should help me and possibly others also.

[lordrune]

I played my first games with automated workers, but more recently I've played with them on manual. There are advantages to it, in that you have more of a handle on the best/quickest way to connect special resources, and what cities are in particular need of improving (e.g. stagnant cities, cities that are working unimproved tiles, etc.)

1) The where question I think comes down to preference. I like building farms on flood plains, because a) it makes sense and b) it provides a 'growth engine' tile. I would then combine that with building cottages on grassland, and that gives you a great base for a typical commerce-focused city.

2 and 3) Well, I personally like windmills for the extra food and commerce, so I tend to build quite a few of them soon after I get them. Watermills not so much, because I generally prefer farming river tiles, and when I'm not farming them I've got cottages/towns. I'm not convinced that a watermill is better than a cottage. It's the same deal with workshops, although I sometimes build one or two in a city which can spare the food and needs hammers badly.

4) I don't know if there are any guides. I'm still a novice compared to many players here, but what I've learned from my games is this - focus on resources first, especially ones you don't have. They're all important to connect as fast as possible for the various benefits. Secondary to that, you need to make sure that every worked tile around your cities is improved. My rule of thumb is, if any city anywhere in my empire is working an unimproved land tile, then I'm wasting an opportunity. And if you anticipate population growth in an area e.g. where you've just placed a new city, get a couple of workers down there and start improving tiles so your city will grow into them.

Don't forget that you can also use workers to chop forests, which can help to push wonders through (or any building/unit really). Having your workers on manual gives you the option to choose when to do this, which can be a good tactical advantage. You don't necessarily want to chop every forest though, because late in the game they offer health benefits, and can be improved with lumbermills/forest preserves as well.

[Game-God]

Lordrune:
So then, you are basically saying that there is no real strategy to it other than just picking the tile type and creating the most functioning square for the moment according to what the city is doing at that time?

What about the re-deployment then of the cities usage by clicking on the tiles you want with the city screen open? Does this come into account at all in your uses?

Does this work for any level you play at? What about map type?

These are the problems I am having in not only using the tile properly but in getting the "BEST" from that tile over a game on any play map/level.

I guess maybe I am going to have to post a Play-Along type game here or something to have more precise ideas from as many people as possible if there is no "Adjustable" method for "All" levels/maps.

I will read again a little later today to see what others have to say also. I like the idea of lots of different opinions if that is what it takes for my brain...

[Quillan]

General guidelines:

1) A city will work the center tile, plus one tile for each point of population. You really don't want the population working unimproved tiles, but you also don't want to waste time improving all 20 squares within the fat cross while the city is population 6 and other cities still need improvements.

2) What improvements to use depend on what you're trying to do with the city and what the layout is. Consider a city where you're concentrating on production. Mining a grassland hill will cause that square to generate 1 food and 3 hammers, while putting a windmill on it will generate 2 food and 1 hammer. I use windmills when there's not enough flatland to make the city grow enough to work all the squares.

3) Each city needs 1 or 2 high food tiles at a minimum. These help the city grow quickly and recover quickly after whipping from slavery. Aside from these, decide what you want.

4) Commerce is the lifeblood of your empire! Commerce generates everything! Cottages start small but grow both with time, technologies, and civics. Windmills and watermills are a way to generate some commerce while still generating some production.

5) My first priority is to hook up the strategic resources to my empire. My second priority is generally a strategic road network linking my cities and borders for fast reaction to hostile situation. Third priority is improvement of tiles around cities.

Now, as to how to decide which improvements to use, look at the city and see what you have, and what you need. Do you have plenty of food and need more hammers? Put some mines on hills if you have any. Use watermills along a river and perhaps workshops on grassland or flood plain. Need more commerce? Cottages are for long term benefits, while windmills and watermills can generate commerce immediately. Not enough food, or planning on switching to a specialist-based setup in that city? Start farming high-food tiles like flood plains. Lumbermills improve production while still keeping the health benefits of the forest.

[Ari]

Originally posted by Quillan
General guidelines:

2) What improvements to use depend on what you're trying to do with the city and what the layout is. Consider a city where you're concentrating on production. Mining a grassland hill will cause that square to generate 1 food and 3 hammers, while putting a windmill on it will generate 2 food and 1 hammer. I use windmills when there's not enough flatland to make the city grow enough to work all the squares.

If I'm not mistaken, a windmill will always add +1 food, +1 commerce (not just +1 food). In otherwise productive cities, it might be worthwhile to go with the windmill, since you get a more balanced output, and the square is food neutral, rather than costing, as a mine will. Later in the game, windmills can generate more than even a railroaded mine (though that can be irrelevent if you need raw production more than anything else). One point in favor of a mine is that it can randomly discover certain resources. This is balanced by the risk of collapse/explosion that seems to come all too often with ^&%$ mines.

On a different note, one point that I've been slow to appreciate is that if you have a forest on a non-hill by a river, it's probably better to get rid of it if it's not particularly essential. A forested grassland square is 2 food, 1 hammer. *Any* improvement on that grassland square will give 2 food + 1 commerce + whatever the improvement itself generates. A lumbermill will give you this commerce too, but that's a loooooong time in coming. If you have other forest squares, or other mines, or if you need to chop for whatever reason, these are the squares to target first. Indeed, once you get bronze, perhaps you should start chopping away and improving these at these asap.

[Quillan]

I agree there, Ari. I almost always clear-cut squares along rivers, especially in the early going, where they get cottages. The river plus the cottage gives 2 commerce from the first turn, 3 commerce if you happen to be playing a Financial leader, and can grow to a total of 9 commerce a turn between the town, river bonus, financial bonus, tech bonuses and civic bonuses.

[Game-God]

Originally posted by Quillan
General guidelines:

1) A city will work the center tile, plus one tile for each point of population. You really don't want the population working unimproved tiles, but you also don't want to waste time improving all 20 squares within the fat cross while the city is population 6 and other cities still need improvements.

2) What improvements to use depend on what you're trying to do with the city and what the layout is. Consider a city where you're concentrating on production. Mining a grassland hill will cause that square to generate 1 food and 3 hammers, while putting a windmill on it will generate 2 food and 1 hammer. I use windmills when there's not enough flatland to make the city grow enough to work all the squares.

3) Each city needs 1 or 2 high food tiles at a minimum. These help the city grow quickly and recover quickly after whipping from slavery. Aside from these, decide what you want.

4) Commerce is the lifeblood of your empire! Commerce generates everything! Cottages start small but grow both with time, technologies, and civics. Windmills and watermills are a way to generate some commerce while still generating some production.

5) My first priority is to hook up the strategic resources to my empire. My second priority is generally a strategic road network linking my cities and borders for fast reaction to hostile situation. Third priority is improvement of tiles around cities.

Now, as to how to decide which improvements to use, look at the city and see what you have, and what you need. Do you have plenty of food and need more hammers? Put some mines on hills if you have any. Use watermills along a river and perhaps workshops on grassland or flood plain. Need more commerce? Cottages are for long term benefits, while windmills and watermills can generate commerce immediately. Not enough food, or planning on switching to a specialist-based setup in that city? Start farming high-food tiles like flood plains. Lumbermills improve production while still keeping the health benefits of the forest.

So this as I suspected would generate more questions for me.



1) How should I stop the City from using the unimproved tiles? Must I look at every city every turn to maximise this usage?

2) Makes sense.

3) Does this mean that during times of strife(lack of better wording), I should get rid of something as important as a Town, Village or Hamlet in order to keep the city at current maximum size/Population? I have noticed that when I put my workers in Auto mode they will destroy a long time generated improvement like those above to make something like a Farm then almost as quickly they might make a new Cottage not 2 squares away! (obviously Automation is lacking in intelligence)

4) So the Windmills and Watermills really play an importance during the last half of the game? Are they totally nessesary

5) Does this also mean you hook up the special resources which you cannot do anything with until later when things like Calendar come around? How do you hook them up when there is no use for them at the time you have them available? What is the most preferred improvement for these special resources until they can be utilized properly?

Your final statement seems like it needs some clarifying. How do I know (per game) what I "need"? Is it most important to create a specialist economy up front so that I get the maximum number of specialists then stick with that specialist economy throughout the game? It seems like this economic usage would lend itself to best be kept around all game long rather than deciding to create it after a 1/4 - 1/2 game is done. So why would I "Switch" to a specialist economy later on? Doesn't the other methods last throughout the game or are they going to "loose steam" at some point?

I think I will post some game saves later tonight and ask some direct questions about the worker usages per each city on the map. Just to get an good cross example on Noble also.

[Quillan]

Let me see, how did Blake put it? Something along the lines of "go into your city display, and click all three of the Emphasize Food/Commerce/Production so your governors will stop being a dumbass!", if I'm not mistaken. Do that. Unless I have a very specific goal in mine, I usually leave the choice of which squares to work automated by the governor; that's just me.

NEVER automate your workers! But in the event that you choose to do so, look under Options. There's one for "leave old improvements in place" or something similar, make sure that's checked. There's another for not clearing forests I recommend checking as well.

I will build a road into a square with a resource that requires a tech I don't yet have, but it's not high on the priority list. As an example, I'd have a worker farm the wheat next to a city of mine before building a road into the spices square when I don't have plantation. When I say strategic resources, I'm referring to copper, iron, coal, oil, and the like.

Are windmills and water mills totally necessary? No, but they are situational. Imagine late in the game you have a city that needs land developed around it. Perhaps you've captured it in a war, or perhaps it's been pillaged. You want some extra commerce, but it might take 60-100 turns for a cottage to develop into a town. You can put down a mill and get 3 or so commerce as soon as it's finished. They're good for giving some production to a city on flat land that has no bonus production features, too.

As how you know what you need, that's just something that's going to come with experience. You'll figure out when your production needs to be boosted, or commerce, or food, or any combination of the above.

[Game-God]

Quillan:

So you believe in the Governor buttons to help or hinder you? I guess I am not sure since you are (correctly sarcastic) about them but saying that you use them... confusing to me.

I have used them only once and here's what happend:

I was going for culture win with around 300 turns left and one city becoming Legendary in 30 turns the next 70. The third city needed something like 330 turns still. So I changed my Culture slider to 90% changed all cities except for the smallest 2 over to using production as culture, tuerned on the emphsize Specialists Governor on each city and watched for a few turns to see what would happen.

The three closest Great Person popping cities changed to Great Spy and most of the rest changed to Great Engineer, or Merchants. NONE of them went to Great Artist which I could have used the culture from to boost the third city over the edge very quickly. So I then had to turn off the Governors in all cities and flip all Great people off what they were and onto Great Artists.

I then had the ability to win BARELY. Good Governors are hard to find either in the game or real life... I NEVER automate the workers unless I have the "leave old improvements" on.

As for the Workers I will post a save sometime tonight for the start of a Noble game and after a few turns to see if there is anything I do wrong with it to get some inpressions on the worker usage or maybe more. (beware I do not fall prey to using a certain type of leader for their traits and such I just play either random leader or one that looks cool...)

[Quillan]

In the majority of my games, on the main screen, I alt+click on the city bar. This gives me the ability to use those buttons for all existing cities. I tell them to emphasize production and emphasize commerce. In normal circumstances I find they do an ok job prioritizing growth, and if I tell them to emphasize food they go food over everything else. Unless I'm designing a city to build great people, I never tell it to emphasize great people or culture. I manually select builds and let the governor decide what's being worked. They do sometimes put in a bunch of priest specialists to boost hammers (especially if I have Angkor Wat - the wonder), but computer-assigned specialists aren't normally a problem for me.

You see, in your example, you let them decide which specialist to use, but you disagreed with the choice and you changed it. Assume you have a cathedral and a broadcast tower in the city in question, and are running Free Speech. Every point of culture generated will count triple. The artist will give you 3 base, total of 9. But an engineer gives you two hammers, which depending on the city can easily be modified up to 4 or even 6 hammers depending on what's in the city, and then turned into culture. Further, with 90% of the commerce going to culture anything that generates more commerce will also go into culture.

[Game-God]

OK

So I have started a game with the intentions of learning about my worker usage and possibly some better city management styles for Noble and above levels of play.

First some background of my already poor worker usage.

I do not like to automate but might try it occasionally during play to alleviate my time of micromanaging the

workers. I have found through one trial that the Governors are just about as useless too for automation. (maybe you have methods I can try). Edit: I created this listing before reading your last post Quillan so...

If any of you have something to add here for the startup position please feel free to jump into the pool even if it is not about workers or city usage(though that is my primary conern).

The Game:

Noble, standard, continents with random leader for fun.

No special rules additions as I am learning a new skill here to use the workers "Most Effectively" with the intentions of moving up the ladder every game I win until I lose so incompetantly that I will have to learn a new strategy (worker or otherwise).

With that here's is what came up for a leader and the startup position:

Aaaaah! how refreshing...Ghandi

I haven't played with Ghandi for quite a while since there are so many others that keep coming up randomly..

Starting Stuff:
Mystisism - Mining
Philisophical - Spiritual
Fast Worker - Mausoleum

and the Starting Position:

OK Give your thoughts on placement also if you like though I think I will go with staying put since there appears to be some more deserts by the river to the East, and thats a good thing for making Specialists, Right?

I'm not a Goody hut kinda guy so unless I get a technology (not as likely on Noble in my games) it will be what it will be. I think I will send the Warrior unit to the Eastern hill to open more country up than if heading Westerly which will likely have more forests thereby blocking his view of terrain more. What do you think of this move up front?

Ghandi is philsophical so the decision to go for Great People generation will come either in this city or another that has better potential. If I follow other peoples ideas so far from reading around here I should do this just as soon as possible, and since he is also Spiritual I will be going for as many religeons as possible for income later, which in my book dictates getting the following techs and build que: (or something close)??

Techs:
Meditation-Polytheism-Agriculture-Monotheism or Priesthood-Bronzworking-The Wheel-Pottery-Writing

Build Que:
Warrior-Warrior(faster search coverage)Worker-Worker-Settler-Oracle (to get Ironworking or Metal Casting) Second city should go for more a Warrior then settlers right away to maximise expansion right?

What say Ye?

After I have some input from some of you more knowledgeable people I will play for a while and post another screen/save., and don't forget the main reason here is to point out the things I can do with the workers to benefit Ghandi's strengths on Noble so I can learn to work-those-tiles in a most effective manner.

Thanks for all the help!

...and here's the file if your interested in playing around with it

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=92751_DouglasBC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave

[Yosho]

Generally speaking, with some cities, if you put mines on all the hills, you simply won't have enough food to work most of them; your city will stop growing due to lack of food, and most of those hill mines will just sit there, unworked and useless. To get your city to grow to an ideal size, you will need either some farms or some windmills.

Basically, if you want to use all your city squares, unless you have a lot of food resources, the real question is if you want to build windmills on your hills and cottages on your grasslands/plains, farms on your flatlands and mines on your hills, and that depends on if you want commerce or hammers more in that city at that point in time. In general, I usually have a lot more windmills then mines by mid-game, but that depends on your stratagy and on what you need.

[Game-God]

Originally posted by Yosho
Generally speaking, with some cities, if you put mines on all the hills, you simply won't have enough food to work most of them; your city will stop growing due to lack of food, and most of those hill mines will just sit there, unworked and useless. To get your city to grow to an ideal size, you will need either some farms or some windmills.

Basically, if you want to use all your city squares, unless you have a lot of food resources, the real question is if you want to build windmills on your hills and cottages on your grasslands/plains, farms on your flatlands and mines on your hills, and that depends on if you want commerce or hammers more in that city at that point in time. In general, I usually have a lot more windmills then mines by mid-game, but that depends on your stratagy and on what you need.

OK so I should prioritize ALL cities to get Hammers or Food initially then when I begin to feel the Financial pinch I should switch over to Cottages or Windmills/Watermills? I notice that the Automated workers usually do this as soon as the technology is available. Maybe they have something afterall.

I have gone ahead(due to life pulling me later this evening) and played out a few turns and made some headway with the game above. Let me know what you think of the layout of my cities with regards to my tile usage and possibly city placement where applicable. I have taken a city of the closest AI and could not afford to keep going at him right then, so I stole a worker and one city of his placement (he also has placed another city so close that I might get it through culture later).

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=92751_DouglasAD-0400.CivBeyondSwordSave

[Game-God]

And here's a few pictures of things that happened along the way.

All my cities at present day:


Capitol working some time ago though:


Second City working some time ago: Can I improve this cities usage any better or the capitol?

[Blake]

The capital is too rich in food. But you should still only improve the food rich tiles (ie don't improve the plains while there is still floodplain).

Found another city on the desert hill and give it the pigs and even some of the hills.



Delhi should be improved all cottages no farms, because it has surplus food in spades. Furthermore the hills should be mined rather than windmills, again because of it's massive surplus food.

Bombay is improved optimally, but not placed optimally. I would probably have placed it one tile lower and placed another city 2 tiles above bombay, where it gets the copper, corn and 2 sugars.

Furthermore the placement order is wrong.

Here's how I'd dotmap and the approximate order I;d found in:



1) Start by founding along the city and taking advantage of floodplains, which can be improved with Pottery alone (ie get pottery ASAP and use that as your main worker activity).
2) Flank the capital. It always makes sense to place cities near the capital because they have low upkeeps and are safe from barbs and stuff. That little city will be super-productive with 2 high food tiles and the hills.
3) Making a "supply line" to better territory, given that it's placed between cows and horses this city will be very quickly productive (no need to wait for border expansion)
4) More floodplains!
5) Expanding up the coast. Two locations are given. There are pros and cons to both, one has coast, the other has freshwater and sugar, in this case I'd go with 5b unless you plan to build the Great Lighthouse / Colossus (which would be doable with City 2)
6) A very nice site but needs lots of jungle clearing which is why it doesn't come earlier.

Frankly by that stage, the AI's will be messing things up. But you'd want to keep founding cities along those lines. Generally the rule is to pack in cities wherever there is "free food", because "free food" is a lot better than food from farms.

And really crank out the settlers by whipping them, a city like Delhi bringing in oodles of food can whip out settlers at a very good clip, while bringing in lots of commerce from the cottages. That's the joy of floodplains - lots of commerce, lots of settlers, you get to expand rapidly and pay for that expansion. If you have to slow down growth because the city is growing more than 3 pop in 10 turns (the whipping rate) then train workers the old fashioned way.