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Originally posted by Supr49er
Really, ironclads? They obsolete so fast for me that I never build them. I suppose they could guard your ocean resources.
Yes, they sure do... but sometimes, if I have tons of money, I will build some so that I can have instant destroyers at a "reasonable" rate.
Ironclads are good for defense, to keep your sea resources alive. If you have a tech lead, you don't even have to bother upgrading them... the AI won't bother a fortified ironclad, even if they have a buttload of frigates. If you don't have a tech lead, then 2-3 ironclads will usually take out a destroyer, whereas it would take a half dozen frigates.
Also, Ironclads are useful if you don't have oil. They let you at least survive until you can make subs.
An oil-less game is quite a bit of fun, actually. It's interesting how much it changes all the dynamics.
Throw the oil-less game into the BtS expansion, and you get a totally new dynamic: the drive for Standard Ethanol. Put the corp in a city and you can build oil-based units there, but it'll drive maintenance costs way up. How far do you spread it?
Age and treachery will defeat youth and skill every time.
Originally posted by Quillan
Throw the oil-less game into the BtS expansion, and you get a totally new dynamic: the drive for Standard Ethanol. Put the corp in a city and you can build oil-based units there, but it'll drive maintenance costs way up. How far do you spread it?
That's an easy answer: only in your military production city. With planning, you have only 1. A coastal city with Military Academy, Drydock, and your choices from the a-la-carte menu: Heroic, West Point, Red Cross, military instructors, etc.
Other cities you can expand if you have the resources to fuel the beaker boost from Std. Ethanol, and if it makes sense from an economic standpoint.
Of course, there is a good bit of game time between the period when you "could" have had oil-based units, and when you can make the Ethanol corp. So even then, Ironclads have their place.
Ragnar now is a fraction of is former size and all of the territory on his home continent has been made into a colony of mine, the Dutch mostly to keep expenses down. War weariness reached 2200 had my own cities having problems at this point. His cities were striking and he was loosing 100 gold per turn as he lost the last cities on his continent.
Abaout a third of the way through the last campgain i got modern armour and upgraded all of my tanks instantly he lost his cities so fast my bomber and jet fighter were barely able to keep up anf the new tanks rolled through without stopping.
Will post a save if anyone wants it.
I have found from experince in this one is at least local dominace is essential to get your ships across safely. And make your on stacks of naval units to counter his.
The other one is make a naval advance through a waeker vassal if possible in order to get a beach head.
A further note is that the problem of the enemy being able to move large numbers of troops occurs at astronomy. Although it is possible earlier you need lots more galleys to do the same thing earlier and cant do it over oceans.
Best counter is to make a beach head on his land and pack as many units in as possible even to the point of making it more of an armed camp than a city.
the defence I used against naval invasions was 4 infantry upgraded from the oromo warriors in each coastal city and several tanks in reach known landing sites. The AI in this particular game kept landing in the same spots once their inital invasion failed.
the other thing is you need to break their army on thier land before you can start taking cities.
I found iron clads useful for camping and coastal defence before destroyers come along but useless for anything once they do. even transports are stronger than iron clads and if you have them against an oponent/s without oil you can have your stacks of transports unescorted while you finish thier clads off with the more powerful ships.
Ironclads do get bothered if transoprts/galleons are landing troops nearby.
The central problem is being able to detect thier invasion fleet and then bringing enough force down to bear so that it cant get to your land. Its really a function of how many tin cans you can get and keep in the water.
Originally posted by unamablebuiler
I found iron clads useful for camping and coastal defence before destroyers come along but useless for anything once they do. even transports are stronger than iron clads and if you have them against an oponent/s without oil you can have your stacks of transports unescorted while you finish thier clads off with the more powerful ships.
Personally I prefer to "finish off" earlier/weaker units with my transports. This allows my transports to get movement+2. That's usually so much more important to me than destroying his naval capability.
Of course, if I found myself in a position where I wanted to do a naval invasion the moment I got transports, I would probably say differently.
I only actually build transports and galleons once I am about to fill them on they way for invasion. Empty the always are unescorted and full are escorted by recently built destroyers,battleships, and subs once i have them.
So I might have just 5 or so transpports versus 30+ destroyers proportional number of battleshipss and a few subs. Of course in this game I built mostly battleships till i started sinking his destroyers (he couldnt build battleships lacking the tech to do so)
1. Physics is more valuable in BtS because of the excellent reconnaisance airships can deliver. It's a pain having to manually order this every turn but one airship can show you a stretch of ocean that would take several ships to block - giving enough time to reinforce coastal cities.
Also they can bombard ships and land units - not enough to kill but enough to weaken them for an easier kill by your units. They are also very mobile as they can rebase to any of your cities.
2. Privateers are useful for picking off those pesky caravels that are trying to map out your coastline. They can also be used to hit an incoming fleet without starting a war as long as it is only caravels and galleons.
3. Walls and castles - now that the AI likes to launch amphibious attacks with pre-gunpowder units from galleons these are definitely worth building in coastal cities.
The defensive trait making these buildings easier and giving your archery and gunpowder units garrison 1 is quite handy.
4. Not so sure about ironclads now. I used to build some in Warlords but now tend to build Ship of the Line instead and then replace them with Destroyers after building drydocks and preferably the Pentagon.
It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O
(shrug) Ironclads do eat frigiates and gallions for breakfast, so if I expect do a significant amount of navel combat in a place they can get to (either defending, or sometimes on wierd maps they can go on offense),and I'm playing on marathon, they're worth building.
And the AI certanly builds them. The game I was speaking of, I was doing really well offensivly with my frigiates and gallions, then he got ironclads. I could build them too, of course, but I couldn't get them there, so he then had a massive navel advantage. I had to sneak in reinforcements from the nearest open-borders city (which, luckily, was within the movement range of the gallion) for the rest of the war. Still conquered the guy though.
still in my first game, but I do like naval combat a little more now. It's nice having ship of the lines as frigates were so hard to kill with frigates before. You'd think it would be a 50% chance but seemed much worse than that. Big war with Napolean. He likes to build lots of ships in my Warlords game, hasn't changed in BTS. Luckily I had ship of the lines to beat his frigates. Eventually he had ships of the line, but I had more than him and slowly whittled down his navy. Though I didn't fully destroy his navy until the next war and I had destroyers.
The AI had an invasion fleet of like 5 or 6 galleons!! Never had an amphibious invasion of that many. I'm not sure how many units he had loaded as I managed to destroy them all. Still took 2 turns though. Not sure why he didn't unload him after the first turn. But first turn my destroyers destroyed all the ships of line and frigates escorting the galleons. I didn't have enough to get the galleons first turn, but got them the second turn.
I'm just glad I had a big navy this game. I usually neglect it.
though Napolean still seems aggressive even though they took that tag off of him in Warlords. He always declares war on me.
No, they were not. Ragnar was in last place in that particular game. The only person he could militarily threaten was in second to last place, and sharing his continent, but he was constantly invading someone on the other continent. He'd load up 3-4 galleons with inferior troops and drop them off, manage to take one city, then lose it to the counterattack. Then he'd make peace with that civ, until he could muster enough troops to invade again, at which time he would repeat the process. If he stripped his entire empire of garrisons he couldn't fill those galleons, but he still had them.
Age and treachery will defeat youth and skill every time.
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