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**Quillan** · October 10, 2007, 09:30

1 infantry or 1 cavalry attacking 1 tank will almost certainly lose, however it's going to damage the tank in the process. A second attacking has a chance of winning depending on how much damage the first one caused. If it still loses, it will also damage the tank. The third will probably win, and by the time you get to a fourth you're almost certain to win. Quantity is a quality all its own.

Even with a tech advantage, if you're outnumbered locally by 3:1 you're in trouble. What are you going over with? Personally, I would not mount a naval invasion with less than 30 units unless I had a huge tech advantage (tanks/infantry against longbows or perhaps muskets at most).

As to how he can do it, think about this: it costs nothing to build units, only to maintain them. At that point in the game your opponent has long since gained the capability of building wealth. Even the remnants of his economy might be enough to support the military he has, if he turns scientific research basically off. Assuming he's running Vassalage, he gets free support for extra units.

**Petrus2** · October 10, 2007, 10:16

While I haven't learned all the nuances of BtS yet, I have already learned that being able to counterpunch is very valuable.

In a recent game I had a tech advantage but quantity disadvantage, especially in one location. I had a killer stack appear outside a city, but was able to use MY catapults and trebuchets to damage a lot of the attackers before they could strike. Then my recently-gained riflemen (plus musketmen & knights) killed a fair number of his units that were waiting to attack.

So now Julius unleashes his trebs & cats (at least 5 of each, but I think more like 12-15 total). Consider: if I'd just waited for his attack, he'd have damaged all my units with his bombardment. But I'd killed about 10 of his attackers already, taking damage in return sure. But then his bombardment STILL only took me down to the pre-set minimum.

Then he attacks, but I've already killed a lot of his and weakened the rest. So I was able to (barely) hang on to the city while more defenders rushed to the scene. It was a close run thing, but if I couldn't have defended in an offensive manner, I'd have lost the city.

**Supr49er** · October 10, 2007, 10:47

With the tougher AI navy I always keep a submarine screen between my continent and ALL others. It gives an early warning. I Always promote my battleships with Drill and Barrage to hit naval stacks. Submarines will damage their destroyers before they get to your cities where your navy can hammer them. Even bombers can cause some collateral damage. At later stages you can use missile cruisers as a screen. Naval warfare is much more fun now that the AI realizes it has a navy.

**PLATO** · October 10, 2007, 11:12

Re: Naval warfare in BTS

Originally posted by unamablebuiler
Their destroyers are killing my battleships without taking much damage half the time.

I have noticed this as well. I wonder if there is a reasonable explanation that someone might provide?

**MoonWolf** · October 10, 2007, 11:25

Re: Re: Naval warfare in BTS

Originally posted by PLATO

I have noticed this as well. I wonder if there is a reasonable explanation that someone might provide?

AI luck? Have some times lost against insanly good odds, also several times in a row... However, if a lot of people expire this destroyer vs battleship, then it should maybe be looked into.

**wodan11** · October 10, 2007, 11:48

A lot of times, the AI has highly-promoted destroyers, because they're upgrades, not new builds. This goes back to the cheap AI upgrade costs. And, I think a human sometimes tends to avoid drydock because of health concerns and/or making ships in their military city (with Heroic and/or military instructors).

Anyway, what that means that is the AI can often get better combat odds than you would think.

And, the way the combat works, whoever gets the first "round" will have the edge to win the whole combat. Taking a hit from a Str 30 unit will surely knock off 10-12 points, which would leave the Battleship at less strength than the destroyer, even before we take the destroyer's promotions into account.

Wodan

**MoonWolf** · October 10, 2007, 11:57

Originally posted by wodan11
And, the way the combat works, whoever gets the first "round" will have the edge to win the whole combat. Taking a hit from a Str 24 unit will surely knock off 6-8 points, which would leave the Battleship at less strength than the destroyer, even before we take the destroyer's promotions into account.

How can losing 6-8 points cause less strength than 24 when the battleship is 40?

**wodan11** · October 10, 2007, 12:14

Post is revised.

**MoonWolf** · October 10, 2007, 12:48

Then it looks better

Started to wonder if I missed something here...

**wodan11** · October 10, 2007, 12:54

I type faster than I think, sometimes.

Seriously... I just retook a typing test (first time in a long while) and found I've gone up to 110wpm. That's definitely faster than I can think.

Wodan

**MoonWolf** · October 10, 2007, 12:58

Hahaha, well, know what you mean

**PLATO** · October 10, 2007, 13:14

Originally posted by wodan11
A lot of times, the AI has highly-promoted destroyers, because they're upgrades, not new builds. This goes back to the cheap AI upgrade costs. And, I think a human sometimes tends to avoid drydock because of health concerns and/or making ships in their military city (with Heroic and/or military instructors).

Anyway, what that means that is the AI can often get better combat odds than you would think.

And, the way the combat works, whoever gets the first "round" will have the edge to win the whole combat. Taking a hit from a Str 30 unit will surely knock off 10-12 points, which would leave the Battleship at less strength than the destroyer, even before we take the destroyer's promotions into account.

Wodan

That actually makes a lot of sense. Most all my losses have come from being attacked (although I would say it is still higher than normal defeat while attacking...which could be the AI's promotions I guess).

Is there a way to identify what promotions an AI destroyer would have before you sail your battleship into range?

Also, if this is common, then doesn't this call into question the need to even build a battleship due to its 6 movement vs a destroyer's 8?

**wodan11** · October 10, 2007, 13:37

Well, you can see the promotions on the AI units, just wave your mouse over them.

And, if you're wondering about building battleships in the first place, let me point out that your unpromoted destroyers would be at an even worse disadvantage.

There are several possible answers, IMO:
-- make promoted units. As I suggested, use drydocks, and even better devote one of your cities to be a military training city, a production city with heroic epic, west point, military instructors, etc. Put this city on the coast. That will allow you to make ungodly promoted ships as well as ground troops.
-- make subs. As long as they have range, your subs (promoted with flanking etc) can strike the destroyers and retreat back to the protection of your battleship. Now it's an entirely different story... there is a damaged (albeit promoted) destroyer, but you have a healthy battleship or two.
-- use zeppelins, fighters, or bombers to strike the destroyers. Again there are damaged destroyers vs your healthy battleships.

Wodan

**Quillan** · October 10, 2007, 14:18

I like to promote subs with Flanking + Sentry. It makes an even more effective (and nearly invisible) warning line.

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Naval warfare in BTS

Naval warfare in BTS

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