Struggling with Prince.

[lordrune]

I'm still developing my skills as a player (with BTS). Over the past couple of weeks, I've been dominating my Noble games. I build a strong economy, get a tech lead, and usually pick a neighbour to wipe off the map pre-Gunpowder. Once I'm running in front, then I usually end up with a diplomatic victory or a space race.

On Prince, its a different story. I was really happy with the start I had in the last game. My capital had two fish, deer, and sheep, with a smattering of grassland, plains, and forests. Nearby, I had copper, iron, and stone. Only thing missing was horse. I expanded effectively, and established a tech lead. Montezuma was nearby, blocking my expansion into fertile lead, and making threats... so I built lots of swordsmen and catapults, which I felt was the most effective army at the time.

Despite building up an army that was costing me 15 gold/turn, I didn't actually catch up to Monty on the power graph - but I attacked anyway. I figured I had enough to take a couple of cities and cripple him. So I declared war - and had early success. I took three cities - he managed to retake one while my stack of doom was elsewhere but I had a gain of two. War exhaustion was crippling me, so I made peace.

I was really worried at this point, because the Carthaginians were getting substantially ahead in tech, and Montezuma was at my level now. I had no friends who would trade with me. I figured I needed to consolidate. Unfortunately, I didn't get the opportunity. As soon as the peace treaty was over, Montezuma declared war on me. My war exhaustion immediately shot right back up, and my economy crippled itself. I fought, but he retook his cities and was bearing down on me.

I could have fought on but the best I could have gotten was a stalemate, and that would have been optimistic. At that point I would be the backwater of the world.

If I understand it the AI gets cheats at Prince. So if myself and the AI have a civilisation of the same size and power, the AI will get extra research/shields/etc. Is that right? Or do I just suck?

I obviously have to alter my strategy, because I've had three or four failures at Prince now. I'm just trying to work out what I need to change. I'm worried that if I build lots of units, to catch up with the AI on the power graph, that I'll end up falling behind on the economy.

[gdgrimm]

1) Diplomacy.
2) Realize that your game play will have to change depending on whom your neighbors are and what the world looks like.

With Monty next door, you have to:
1) Maintain a reasonable military (above average in strength), and make sure he hates somebody else more than he hates you.
2) If you don't want to (or can't) do the above, you have to wipe him out early. That may mean taking an early dip in tech and economy compared to other Civ's that don't have to fight an early war. But that's the way it has to be played.

[ColdPhoenix]

The AI does get bonuses on Prince. Buildings/units/wonders and techs are cheaper. Also, the AI still has Noble level unhappiness and health and I believe their corruption expenses are lower.

[lordrune]

Originally posted by gdgrimm
With Monty next door, you have to:
1) Maintain a reasonable military (above average in strength), and make sure he hates somebody else more than he hates you.
2) If you don't want to (or can't) do the above, you have to wipe him out early. That may mean taking an early dip in tech and economy compared to other Civ's that don't have to fight an early war. But that's the way it has to be played.

Yes.... I see it that way too now.

I'm a bit paranoid about falling behind in tech in Prince, because in a previous game I was in a situation where every single AI country was ahead of me, and I could never quite get another tech desirable enough to trade my way back up there.

I think I need to be a bit smarter with the military - make better use of combined arms, multiple attacks, etc. to really destroy the enemy before I get locked into a stalemate. I may also need to adjust my idea of what 'overwhelming force' is

I guess I willl get better with experience. It just amazes me how huge the gap in toughness between Noble and Prince is.

What about combat rolls? I don't know if this effect is really there or just me imagining things, because there was more pressure - but I could swear that in Prince, an attack at 90%+ odds isn't nearly as sure as it would be on Noble. I attacked a city once, three swordsmen, all attacks at 70%+ - lost all three. Don't remember that happening at lower difficulty settings.

[ColdPhoenix]

Originally posted by lordrune
What about combat rolls? I don't know if this effect is really there or just me imagining things, because there was more pressure - but I could swear that in Prince, an attack at 90%+ odds isn't nearly as sure as it would be on Noble. I attacked a city once, three swordsmen, all attacks at 70%+ - lost all three. Don't remember that happening at lower difficulty settings.

It's just you imagining things

[WTBCzero]

Could you post some saves? That should help us find out what's going wrong.

[lordrune]

Sure... here's the latest autosave.

I've just been DOWed by Monty, and he's chewed up my frontline armies.

I think one of my problems is I got rather too keen on my super-city Persepolis, and had to stack it full of archers to maintain happy cap It seemed like a great idea at the time... but war exhaustion was a killer.
You'll note science at 0, culture at 50%. If culture isn't at 50, then I get unhappy faces. If science is above 0, then I'm in deficit.

[joncnunn]

If your in a war that's going somewhere it's very ok to run a deficit. Pillaging enemy towns, villages, etc. yields some cash. Capturing or raizing enemy cities raises cash.

Now if the war is no longer going anywhere you might want to consider signing a peace treaty for the best deal you can and if it's not good enough wait ten turns and start up the war again.

(If a city was happy at 0% at peace but WW is causing 50% to be needed the war has probably gone on long enough for the AI to be willing to talk.)

Originally posted by lordrune
Sure... here's the latest autosave.

I've just been DOWed by Monty, and he's chewed up my frontline armies.

I think one of my problems is I got rather too keen on my super-city Persepolis, and had to stack it full of archers to maintain happy cap It seemed like a great idea at the time... but war exhaustion was a killer.
You'll note science at 0, culture at 50%. If culture isn't at 50, then I get unhappy faces. If science is above 0, then I'm in deficit.

[lordrune]

I'm doing much better with my current game as Roosevelt. I've got a tech lead, have expanded to a good offshore island, and have pretty good relations with all neighbours.
Only concern I have is that my power graph is a bit below the 'curve' which is probably not a good thing.

Problem is, I keep getting things I want to build more than I want to build new units... just can't stop myself.

[jbp26]

Originally posted by ColdPhoenix
The AI does get bonuses on Prince. Buildings/units/wonders and techs are cheaper. Also, the AI still has Noble level unhappiness and health and I believe their corruption expenses are lower.

the bonuses the AI gets largely depend on the version of the game you're playing. the AI in vanilla civ4 and warlords competes at higher difficulties by being more aggressive and getting more cheats. in BTS and beyond, it competes by playing smarter- up to and including monarch, the cheats are pretty minimal.

without looking at your save, i can tell you that gunpowder-era is way too late to be attacking your first neighbor. axes and spears are all you need early on. if you're waiting that long, you are probably building too many superficial structures. wonders aren't important, every town doesn't need a library, etc. theres a lot of threads similar to this with pages of great advice, i recommend reading through some of those.

[Unimatrix11]

Originally posted by lordrune
I'm doing much better with my current game as Roosevelt. I've got a tech lead, have expanded to a good offshore island, and have pretty good relations with all neighbours.
Only concern I have is that my power graph is a bit below the 'curve' which is probably not a good thing.

Problem is, I keep getting things I want to build more than I want to build new units... just can't stop myself.

hihihi - a problem i know all too well and seems pretty common. Try to research worker/civic/military - techs only for a while to lessen the temptation in the city screen. If You have a lot of buildings left to build in Your cities, You may consider researching something that takes long and doesnt grant You the abiltiy to build even more, too - something like civil service for example (which will help to build faster in the capital, too)...

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by joncnunn
If your in a war that's going somewhere it's very ok to run a deficit. Pillaging enemy towns, villages, etc. yields some cash. Capturing or raizing enemy cities raises cash.

Now if the war is no longer going anywhere you might want to consider signing a peace treaty for the best deal you can and if it's not good enough wait ten turns and start up the war again.

(If a city was happy at 0% at peace but WW is causing 50% to be needed the war has probably gone on long enough for the AI to be willing to talk.)

This is very true... in a PTBS game i'm playing, i'm running at -30 or 40 gpt, but I'm taking about one enemy city every two turns, yielding 100-200g depending on the size - meaning i'm gaining a net of 10-60gpt still (I'm running 40% science, but the imminent building of a forbidden palace should help that ... and the doubling of my empire in twenty turns is enough to ensure it doesn't matter).

Remember - 40% science at double the cities is as good as 80% science at normal city level

[Littiz]

Oh my, I'm struggling with Prince (BTS) too, and it's pretty frustrating.
I mean, I can't quite grasp what I'm doing wrong.

I know how to quickly expand, chop, specialize cities, build an early defense army to discourage enemies from attacking, I'm not even too much distracted by wonders (unless it's reasonable to build them), and everything.
I apply many of the strategies I've known through the forums, I experiment with different traits and tactics and, I can say, I almost unfailingly get a lead in the graph.

Yet, at some point, I realize the game has taken a bad turn and have to quit.

If I'm caught into a war, it always drags long enough for the competition to fill the gap and even rocket ahead of me.
If I'm out of free land for expansion, I am never fast enough in switching to the navy. Actually, I've never managed to expand via the seas.
I can see where the mistakes lie (diplomacy is also a thing I tend to neglect) but the urgent matters are always so urgent that I can't see how to do better.
I'm considering trying some of the "easiast" civs to get a hang of this difficulty level.
Maybe the Romans? Or what about Elizabeth, to swim in money and pursue a lot of Golden Ages?

[jbp26]

posting a save is the easiest way for others to comment on what you're doing wrong.

i noticed a lot of people saying that their wars drag on too long and this kills them in tech and everything. to me this implies you are not fighting decisvely enough. if youre the one declaring war, you should bring enough units initially to cripple the opponent, not try to reinforce and play catch up the whole time. maybe you're declaring war too late?

the romans are an easy civ to play because they have the most potent unique unit. however, i don'tlike the traits of either roman leader, and i dont like their UB either. elizabeth isnt a bad choice to play. darius is pretty great for limitless expansion, and shaka is good if you want to practice military conquest.

[Badbonez]

Originally posted by lordrune
Sure... here's the latest autosave.

I've just been DOWed by Monty, and he's chewed up my frontline armies.

I think one of my problems is I got rather too keen on my super-city Persepolis, and had to stack it full of archers to maintain happy cap It seemed like a great idea at the time... but war exhaustion was a killer.
You'll note science at 0, culture at 50%. If culture isn't at 50, then I get unhappy faces. If science is above 0, then I'm in deficit.

Well, I will comment though take it for what it's worth (I'm no genius at this). In 1570 with normal game speed, you don' t seem to have explored a lot of territory. I guess you'll have 8 players in this game? And you have met 4. I hate being stuck at the end of the world and in this game I would have raced to optics to get caravel's out quick. Meeting the other civs might allow you to get some leverage on monte. Plus you might get a missionary from another religion to allow more happy buildings (temples). And don't forget to build monuments. As Persia, one of the characteristics is +1 per monument.

I think you have enough to hold monte off for a few turns while you build up defenses and monuments in a few cities. Hopefully, he'll attack a strong point and you can wear him down. And build immortals for flanking, to attack the catapults. They may die but they're cheap and the catapults will die too.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

PS: Trade for resources like gold and dyes from Mansa - after a couple turns he was willing to trade. That will bring more joy to your towns.