Need help advancing to Prince - BtS

[jkp1187]

Okay, I'm not having any difficulty winning on Noble level most of the time, so it's time for me to Prince. Unfortunately, I'm finding it very difficult to keep up with the AI on this level. (Alas, gone are the old 1.61 Warlord days, when I could win regularly on Monarch.)

I've attached a save file from a current game (Willem/Dutch/Small/6 civs/choose religions/no tech brokering) and would appreciate it if some of the more experienced players could take a look and let me know what I'm doing wrong and/or what can be done... It seems as though my expansion isn't paying off fast enough -- Mansa is a LOT more advanced than me, and the gap will likely continue to get bigger, as I'm only able to run ~ 20-30% science.

Thanks in advance for your help!

[ben04]

You spread your cities out way too much. There's enough room for another 2-3 cities on your territories. You are not even using the best tiles.

I see a pig and a gem outside of any city borders. In the early game a gem is a god sent as it can basically double your research. You are at the happyness cap and don't even have that gem developed.

I think you need more workers. A good rule of thumb is to have more workers than city (only after the land grab phase of course). You need to develop more tiles. Often your cities are working forests. Mine and cottage! If that forest is in your way just chop. Heath doesn't give you anything if your city wont reach the health cap.

Wonders are nearly always have poor return on investment. As you only have one AI on your continent you should rather try to kick it of. As long as the others don't know about it you wont get a diplo penalty. Also you'd be safe until astronomy and could neglect your military in favor of your economy. Timbuktu probably would need catapults but the other border, but core cities, could probably have been taken early on. Especially considering that you have iron next to your capital. A force of 4 swords + 2 axes should be able to take a city and keep it. (Kumbi Saleh looks juicy.)

Also you do not have Agressive AI activated (I'd recommend you activate it) so you will only need a much smaller permanent army.

[jkp1187]

Thanks for the suggestions. THey are definitely very helpful.

I understand your point about the expansion -- my thought process was to 'lock down' as much territory as possible then expand to fill in the empty spaces. You think that it would be better to do a tight expansion initially?

[sprudl]

What ben04 said. I also noticed that you have the citizen automation turned on but haven't set any priorities. I think it's better to specialize cities and build tile improvements accordingly.

The Hanging Gardens could hurt you instead of help you. You're already at the happiness cap in your biggest cities. Mining the gems would help. The calendar tech gives access to sugar and dyes, that's more happiness in your cities.

You haven't hooked up the horses in your territory. I'd make it a priority to connect strategic resources when faced with a more powerful neighbour.

I don't know if this can be fixed. You should consider a total military approach. MAximize hammers, switch your cities to building barracks and produce a lot of units. And use those horses. They take out axeman and could pillage Mansa's strategic resources. As it looks now, his iron and horses are right on the southern border. You can take them out the first turn of the war. But be sure to scout there first. A diversionary (kamikaze) force in the south would help anyway.

Considering he already has longbows, it's going to be a tough and bloody war. You'll need catapults, so construction is a good tech for now.

You could buy some techs from Mansa first. He's willing to trade.

[JP Vieira]

Good advice...thanks

[ben04]

Originally posted by jkp1187
Thanks for the suggestions. THey are definitely very helpful.

I understand your point about the expansion -- my thought process was to 'lock down' as much territory as possible then expand to fill in the empty spaces. You think that it would be better to do a tight expansion initially?

But you have to fill it in later and settle in a way that this is still possible. Here in this game I would initially only found on the best sites (in terms of hammers & food) and some decent commerce site (gems) and then kick Musa of the continent. Now you wont have to be afraid about anybody taking sites that you want. You just have to make sure that you have your continent settled when astronomy comes around.

And even if you don't manage to get rid of Musa early you can still cripple him for the rest of the game. Cut him of his strategic resources and place some units in his city radius. Now he will mass produce archers for the rest of the game and perhaps build a city wall. You don't attack, just make sure nobody leaves the city. This way Musa can't break free (as archer are useless on the open field) and can't develop. A couple of catapults can finish the work later in the game. This is a strategy that works well with chariots (and very early, meaning during expansion phase).

[jkp1187]

Originally posted by ben04

But you have to fill it in later and settle in a way that this is still possible. Here in this game I would initially only found on the best sites (in terms of hammers & food) and some decent commerce site (gems) and then kick Musa of the continent. Now you wont have to be afraid about anybody taking sites that you want. You just have to make sure that you have your continent settled when astronomy comes around.

And even if you don't manage to get rid of Musa early you can still cripple him for the rest of the game. Cut him of his strategic resources and place some units in his city radius. Now he will mass produce archers for the rest of the game and perhaps build a city wall. You don't attack, just make sure nobody leaves the city. This way Musa can't break free (as archer are useless on the open field) and can't develop. A couple of catapults can finish the work later in the game. This is a strategy that works well with chariots (and very early, meaning during expansion phase).

Thanks.

In terms of initial settlement, would you say it's a better idea to focus purely on making sure that every bonus resource that can be grabbed is hooked up first?

[Arrian]

One thing: the Hanging Gardens will never "hurt" you. Sure, it may add population that will be unhappy. Fine, whip that population away (slavery). A problem is thus converted into hammers. Huzzah.

Generally, the comments are good. Settle cities that can work good tiles. Generally you don't want much overlap between cities (though I often have some), but you do not want much wasted land inbetween cities either. A stray tile or two is ok, but generally you want to utilize all your land (exception being desert/tundra/ice wastes - there you just want to claim resources as needed).

-Arrian

[snoopy369]

If you are generating mostly angry people, then the hanging gardens is worth (30H*numcities) precisely. Where than number is near or greater than the HG's cost then you are profiting. If you have few small cities (the ones that have non-unhappy people, and who need the extra person the most) and not enough cities to make that equation equal, you may be 'hurt' in the sense of wasting hammers for naught (except the GE points, which are of course worth something).

[jkp1187]

Thanks for the suggestions. I went on to win my first game on Prince yesterday (a "true" diplomatic win, actually). Appreciate all the help.

[Asmodeous]

I'm honestly having the same problem with Monarch.

Although I've gotten to the point where I can stay in the middle of the pack most of the time, but the "gang up on the little guy" wars are still wrecking my poo, so to speak.

Me.

[jkp1187]

Thought I'd post here again, since you guys were so helpful earlier.

Mehmed/Ottomans, Standard Map, 9 civs, modified Terra map (civs permitted to start on all continents), Prince level. After a series of wars, I dominate the "Asian" continent, and am #1 in population, territory, and score. Problem is that Joao started off in "South America" and now has a large lead in technology. It's 1930, he's already constructed Apollo, while I'm still working on researching Railroads. I would have finished off the Khmer earlier, but Joao showed up with a force of infantry and seized Gallipoli. I agreed to stop fighting Khmer, shifted my forces around and took it back, then used the cover of the peace treaty to resume the offensive against the Khmer. Unfortunately, the entire rest of the world joined in the fight, and Joao ended up getting a couple of toeholds in Asia, too.

Am I boned? Or what? It feels like I'm too strong to give up, but I just have the sneaking suspicion that Joao will be able to build the spaceship long before I'll be able to catch up to his technology....

[Horace]

Hi, first post over here.

Why not build up a navy and go and lay waste to his cities. Should at least slow him down if he is going for space race.

[jkp1187]

Originally posted by Horace
Hi, first post over here.

Why not build up a navy and go and lay waste to his cities. Should at least slow him down if he is going for space race.

Take a look at the save game -- and especially the Power graph. He's stronger than the entire rest of the world combined according to the graph...and more practically, he's building a battleship fleet, while I'm still messing around with ironclads.... I'll be able to start building my own battleships probably in 20-25 turns, but I guess it'll be a near-run thing if he pushes the whole space race issue....

[Horace]

ahh
cant look at the save game til i get home from work