When to get astronomy? (and other obsoleting techs)

[Ari]

For some reason, the AI seems to give low priority to metal casing, which in turn means I get the colossus relatively often. This leads to me putting off astronomy as long as possible, since the extra overseas trade I get is negated by the loss I take for each sea square. Granted, I now potentially can trade luxories and health overseas, but still, it seems like I'd have to be nuts to prioritize astronomy when I have the colossus.

In a similar vein, it's not uncommon for me to have 2-3 religions in my cities by the time I can research scientific method, which leads to the ironic LOSS of ~20-30% of my research at that point. Unlike astronomy, in this case, I don't even see an immediate benefit from this.

What do other people tend to do about prioritizing these techs (along with economics)?

[vilemerchant]

I agree these are very annoying situations. Scientific Method is an absolute killer since it also obsoletes the Great Library. If you have a lot of monasteries in your GL city the hit to your research will be huge.

[Jaybe]

Ah, but those difficult decisions make the game!
It would be SO boring if there were cookie-cutter solutions to such dilemmas.

I suppose the astronomy decision would hinge on the number of overseas Open Border agreements you had, and the size of their cities. Or on the overseas ENEMIES you had with potential galleons.

[Yosho]

(nods) It depends on a lot of things. Personally, the limited amount of time it lasts before it goes obsolete often makes me skip the colosses.

[joncnunn]

My tech strategy in the case of Astronomy is it's what I choose as my free tech from Liberalism. It's basically been a no brainer for me ever since an early patch to vanilla that increased Astronomy's cost to one of the most expensive techs for it's era.

In BTS, overseas trade routes are a lot more lucrative, if there's more than one AI on another contienntant that you have open borders with (and you'r both non-Merch) that you can't trade with pre-Astronomy, then those new high value trade routes will probably more than make up for the loss of sea gold as many of your foreign routes get replaced with those oversea ones (and your low value domestic ones replaced by foreign ones).

[joncnunn]

Sci Method is indeed a realtively low priority for me even without the Great Library. Personaly, I research just about every Ren era tech first before researching it as my first Ind era tech (as part of a be-line to Physics) and it's free Scientist

Originally posted by vilemerchant
I agree these are very annoying situations. Scientific Method is an absolute killer since it also obsoletes the Great Library. If you have a lot of monasteries in your GL city the hit to your research will be huge.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by joncnunn
My tech strategy in the case of Astronomy is it's what I choose as my free tech from Liberalism. It's basically been a no brainer for me ever since an early patch to vanilla that increased Astronomy's cost to one of the most expensive techs for it's era.

In BTS, overseas trade routes are a lot more lucrative, if there's more than one AI on another contienntant that you have open borders with (and you'r both non-Merch) that you can't trade with pre-Astronomy, then those new high value trade routes will probably more than make up for the loss of sea gold as many of your foreign routes get replaced with those oversea ones (and your low value domestic ones replaced by foreign ones).

Very true. Plus, with the economic benifits of resourse trading added in and the advatnage of being able to build observatories, astronomy is often something I beeline for right after I get civil service.

About scientific method; it depends on a lot of things. Getting a free great scientist by getting physcis first can be a really major factor if you've had trouble getting enough GS's for the acadamies you need. (Probalbly not as big a factor if you've got the great library.) Also, if you have a lot of farms (which I usually do if I have a lot of plains in my empire), getting scientific method early for early biology can be a huge boost to your economy.

[wodan11]

Kremlin is still very strong in any CE or hybrid, and if you put off SciMeth you risk not getting it.

Wodan

[couerdelion]

Too tricky to answer because you've already said that you have Colossus and thus clouded any general view with a specific example.

I think the basic presumption should be that Astronomy – while expensive – is a valuable tech and is worth researching earlier rather than later because of the benefits it gives. By all means use Liberalism as a cheap way to get this but probably not if Liberalism is takes a lot longer to research.

HOWEVER,

You’re probably playing continents, have reasonable relationships and Open Borders with civs across the ocean (archipelago with unfriendly neighbours also amounts to the same). Anything that will open up a lot of overseas trade routes for you will dramatically improve your economy

So the factors are
+++ Lots of unused foreign trade routes (overseas) – Great Lighthouse, Castles, Free Trade etc
+++ Shortage of key resources
++ Small-medium sized empire
+ Good relations with overseas nations

--- You have a large empire (ie trade as small impact)
--- If you are a pariah state
-- Overseas civs are running Mercantilism
- Colossus

There are also military reasons why Astronomy might be useful but better to deal first with any local land before sending your troops overseas.

Finally, Astronomy opens up Scientific Method (another awkward one to decide). For the large civ, this might be a decent bee-line since it opens the route to State Property and Biology.

[ColdPhoenix]

With Sci Method I either grab asap as it opens a lot of useful techs, or wait as long as possible. I usually have GL, uni of sansk, AP and spiral minoret (my favourite wonders) with a lot of monasteries and so would delay it until I've researched pretty much everthing else that I can.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by ColdPhoenix
With Sci Method I either grab asap as it opens a lot of useful techs, or wait as long as possible. I usually have GL, uni of sansk, AP and spiral minoret (my favourite wonders) with a lot of monasteries and so would delay it until I've researched pretty much everthing else that I can.

Do Sankore and Spiral Minaret now go with Sci. Method???

It used to be computers which is quite a bit further down the line

[jdunson]

Originally posted by couerdelion
Do Sankore and Spiral Minaret now go with Sci. Method?

When your Monasteries obsolete, you retain only the cultural bonus; if you were getting hammers and gold from each building of your state religion due to wonders, etc. that goes away along with the science bonus. It's not a whole lot, but for small cities it can be noticeable.

[wodan11]

I've calculated that Free Relgion is better than any amount of Spiral / Monastery bonus.

The only thing that is intangible is the diplomatic benefits of having a religion.

Wodan

[Ari]

Originally posted by wodan11
I've calculated that Free Relgion is better than any amount of Spiral / Monastery bonus.

The only thing that is intangible is the diplomatic benefits of having a religion.

Wodan

How can that be? 3 monasteries (easily obtainable in a typical game) can bring in a 30% bonus to your research. Not to mention the culture bonus from a monastery which is relatively large for the price (&*%^ hurricanes that hit post-scientific method knock out monasteries for good ). Free religion brings in 10%. Granted, free religion also adds happiness, but not that much, and extra happiness in and of itself (if you don't need it) is useless.

I too hold off getting scientific method as long as possible usually, but I have to wonder about the internal game logic of NOT wanting to know the scientific method because it'll HURT your research.

Also, Sankore and the Spiral Minaret are indeed not obsoleted till computers.

[wodan11]

I think we can easily agree that 1 Monastery = Free Religion, from the basis of 10% beaker bonus. Except that the Monastery cost hammers. So, even there, Free Religion is better.

So, for your cities that have 2 religions, you can build a second monastery, that will give you an extra 10% for that city. For the cost of hammers. Which in itself is not necessarily a good idea. But, say it is. For that city. (Though, we should admit that the hammers are a cost, and do not equate to an extra +10% beakers... the hammers reduce or even overmatch that.)

What about other cities? That don't have a second religion, or who find that it's better to build a granary or university?

Well, they don't count.

So, the question becomes, comparing the happiness benefit of Free Religion, to the miniscule (at best) benefit of continuing under a religion. Without a doubt, from a science standpoint, Free Religion is better.

The only imponderable is whether simply having the religion is better, from a diplomatic standpoint.

Wodan