So what Civic do you use?

[joncnunn]

My main note on Blake's Free Market analyis is he's talking pretty late in the game (4 without, 5 with) or else routintely builds the Great Lighthouse and has mostly coastal cities.

Actually when it first becomes advaibale, most often the choice is between 2 routes per city (non FM) & 3 (with FM) unless you have built Castles [don't seem particularly worth it unless protective or planning on fighting from within your own cities too me]

This doesn't upgrade to 3 non FM in all cities until Corporation which cancels out the Castle TR and If I recall correctly the Great Lighthouse (2) as well.

The other thing I note and this is very map dependent is that intercontiential trade routes are a whole lot more lucrative in BTS than before. On a Pangena map that's not going to matter much, but even on a contential map once you've discovered the other contentent it's very substantial.

Also on the negative for FM is if your "friends" adopt Merchantism which acts just as if they closed the border as far as trade routes are concerned.

[couerdelion]

Joncnunn,

I assume you are comparing the Bureaucracy vs Free Speech rather than the Free Market vs Mercantilism. That latter is purely about trade comparisons so is very dependent on external trade links. Also, it is probably a temporary position if we assume that the next step up is State Property.

Trade is just a parameter in the former, and specifically, the trade value of the capital. Here it is a relatively simple job of working out the benefits of bureaucracy since you can see the hammer/science/gold benefit from the city screen. You can also count the number of towns so a direct comparison is possible. Of course, the commerce lost from the 50% capital bonus will not be offset by an equal benefit from towns in other cities simply because the capital will have better multipliers – commerce allocated to science will often be worth at least twice as much in the capital as in other cities.

The nature of the lost gold from bureaucracy almost ensures that this is a late-game question simply because you will not usually have enough towns to offset the loss of commerce from the capital. To take a simple example

Science 50% slider
Free Market adopted
Capital has one intercontinental trading partner (enough to fill up trade routes) with each route generating 10 gold
Corporation (and Chemistry) has been research (ie no Artemis or Lighthouse)
Commerce generated from tiles = 30

Total commerce in capital is therefore 70 of which 40 comes from trade.

The science and gold multipliers are +225% and 100% respectively (or will be shortly)

Bureaucracy commerce benefit =50% x 70 = 35 commerce (17.5 to science/17.5 to gold)

Science = 17.5 x 325% = 56.875b
Gold = 17.5 x 200% = 35g

Now lets assume that the empire is relative big but that the average multipliers in other cities are 50% science/50% gold. Just a crude number really and one that will change as the game matures. In order to get the same gold benefit alone, we will need an extra 23 commerce going to gold and if the slider is at 50%, this will mean that we need 23 towns to offset the gold lost from the capital.

And we haven’t recouped our science completely. To get a better balance, something of the order of 30 towns would be needed.

That is, I think, the order of magnitude that we are dealing with here. Of course, the numbers will move around a little as science/gold modifiers change, cottages mature, trade routes vary etc. But even later in the game, when electricity adds another boost to the capital’s commerce, it will take a lot of towns to offset the commercial loss from switching out of bureaucracy.

So I think it is better – perhaps Blake has already said this – to focus more on the cultural benefits from Free Speech which is its real strong point

[Blake]

Science 50% slider
Free Market adopted
Capital has one intercontinental trading partner (enough to fill up trade routes) with each route generating 10 gold
Corporation (and Chemistry) has been research (ie no Artemis or Lighthouse)
Commerce generated from tiles = 30

Total commerce in capital is therefore 70 of which 40 comes from trade.

The science and gold multipliers are +225% and 100% respectively (or will be shortly)

Bureaucracy commerce benefit =50% x 70 = 35 commerce (17.5 to science/17.5 to gold)

Science = 17.5 x 325% = 56.875b
Gold = 17.5 x 200% = 35g

Now lets assume that the empire is relative big but that the average multipliers in other cities are 50% science/50% gold. Just a crude number really and one that will change as the game matures. In order to get the same gold benefit alone, we will need an extra 23 commerce going to gold and if the slider is at 50%, this will mean that we need 23 towns to offset the gold lost from the capital.

Another, probably more reasonable analysis:

Capital produces 60 commerce from trade and other sources (rivers, gold mines etc)
Capital has 12 towns (this is half the radius).
The 12 towns produce 60 commerce.

BigB:
60 additional commerce.

Free Speech:
24 additional commerce.

36 commerce is the difference... and if we say the capital has 50%* higher multipliers, then there's a 54 commerce difference...

54 commerce is 27 towns.

In truth - that's not that many. For example a single football field city on the jungle, could have 1 Bananas and 19 towns .
Or 3 cities each with 9 towns each...
Or 9 cities with ~3 towns each...

I mean this is not a large number of towns. I find it hard to believe that on a standard and larger map, you wont be able to scrounge up an entire city radius of towns, unless you're running a serious SE.

Usually I'm able to count at least 20 towns, and I figure that the cultural oppression will make up the difference.

* 50% figure:
70% slider.
70% of : 325% science in capital, 200% elsewhere (assuming multiple academies).
30% of : 200% gold in capital, 175% elsewhere (could be a disparity less in favor of capital if wallstreet shrine in non-capital).

287 / 192 = 1.49

My main note on Blake's Free Market analyis is he's talking pretty late in the game (4 without, 5 with) or else routintely builds the Great Lighthouse and has mostly coastal cities.

The usual trade route numbers:
2 as soon as FM is available.
3 very soon afterwards because corporation is a no-brainer, it makes researching other techs faster.
4 if you built the GL, not a bad idea if you were planning to go trade heavy.
4 with Airports.

I'm not saying it isn't worth the anarchy to switch into FM, it's pretty much free money. But SP is still better.

[couerdelion]

OK well Blake's analysis is not very reasonable in the context of my games. 12 towns in the capital is totally unreasonable (watermills and windmills).

There may be a few town heavy cities with as many as 8 villages and towns but these will have been early cities that had already been dedicated to commerce or a few captured cities where the AI had gone for cottage spamming.

For the rest, there would probably have been a certain production emphasis in order to build the forces needed to capture all this land. By this stage, I will also have concentrated new improvements to being increasingly windmills, watermills and workshops so towns are increasing those that are acquired through conquest or from a few early specialist cities where there are already high commerce tiles (dyes, gems, etc) - and even these need a little production for the multipliers.

Re: culture, I know that the 100% is a big boost but at this stage of the game, I would hardly call it oppression. Any established AI cities are usually big enough to look after themselves so the oppression here takes the form of stealing a few tiles here and there - and nothing too dramatic. The value of the +100% is, for me, more obvious in poppoing borders of newly captured cities.

[Saurus]

An important factor for me when choosing civics is the diplomatic effect the chosen civic will have on other leaders.

In my current game I would benefit more economically from running Representation than Hereditary rule, but I choose to continue using Hereditary rule as I get a diplomatic bonus with 3 other civs by doing this! (the result is both of my closest neighbours are now pleased instead of cautious ... and my best friend is friendly instead of pleased)


In particulary, when it comes to labor civics, I´ll happily switch to any civic that brings me the most needed diplo-boost.

[couerdelion]

I tend to think of diplomatic benefits as just nice-to-have bonuses. It certainly wouldn't be an important factor and, as per the set response to the AI's demand that we change

"You must learn to respect our differences"

Of course, if I have allowed myself to get into a strategically vulnerable position, I might temper my decision. Particularly if it were a case of choosing H.Rule over Rep, which can both be used to good effect. But since I rarely know what civics the AI actually likes, I've learned to work without the need of the small bonuses. I can usually get what I need by long-term peace and solid trade.

[Saurus]

Originally posted by couerdelion
I tend to think of diplomatic benefits as just nice-to-have bonuses. It certainly wouldn't be an important factor and, as per the set response to the AI's demand that we change

"You must learn to respect our differences"

Of course, if I have allowed myself to get into a strategically vulnerable position, I might temper my decision. Particularly if it were a case of choosing H.Rule over Rep, which can both be used to good effect. But since I rarely know what civics the AI actually likes, I've learned to work without the need of the small bonuses. I can usually get what I need by long-term peace and solid trade.

Then you probably are not playing on a too difficult level or map nor are you probably using the Agressive A.I -setting.

On higher levels, on pangeas, were the enemy in fact might come in from any direction, it is impossible to guard against every possible military threat .. so it becomes essential to early map out all A.I:s and decide who will be your friend, and then diligently move toward that direction. I always plan ahead ... and sometimes even reserach techs for the sole purpose of beeing able to switch to a civic in order to be able to please an A.I better (to reach friendly relations etc)
For instance, If I have Chaterine as my neighbour and do not intend to fight her, then getting relations to friendly is essential as she is one of those who backastabs even at pleased.
Now sharing her religion AND running hereditary rule almost guarantees Friendly relations - now she is no more a threat and my valuable resources might be spent elsewere
Not running hereditary rule would mean she might unleash her hordes at me any minute.

On pangea you really have no choise - you simply cannot have potential enemies in all directions - would that be, you cannot effectively defend yourself since your troops would be too much spread out.
You would need too much troops and this in turn would hurt your econmy too much.

I also need to correct you statement regarding the diplo-bonus regarding using a civs favorite civic.
This is not a small bonus - this bonus is HUGE. In some cases even bigger than the one you get of sharing religion.

[joncnunn]

Actually, I came around to that opinion that SP is better than both as soon as I noticed that BTS added a 10% hammer bonus to all city production.

In fact I think SP is now overpowered with that direct hammer boost and either it should be removed or else some big negative added like a minus 2 trade route penalty in every city and/or an increase in civic upkeep all the way from None to High.

Actually, there are a few more civics whose choices can be worse than default:

1. Under Legal civics: Vassalage if your army was already so small you weren't paying any suport costs without it. Even if your planning a war your better marginially exceeding the suport costs before switching.

2. Under Labor civics: Slavery if your not planning on doing any pop-rushing. Why switch to a higher civic maintane option and introduce the chance of slave revolt event if your not going to take advantage of it.

3. Under Religious civics: Pacifism if you have so many army units that your already paying unit maintence.

Originally posted by Blake
I'm not saying it isn't worth the anarchy to switch into FM, it's pretty much free money. But SP is still better.

[joncnunn]

If your actually curious as to what the civic choices your opponent like, go to the diplomatic screen and click on the info tab. This will also tell you which civics they are all running so you don't have to go scanning thru the event log.

Originally posted by couerdelion
I tend to think of diplomatic benefits as just nice-to-have bonuses. It certainly wouldn't be an important factor and, as per the set response to the AI's demand that we change

"You must learn to respect our differences"

Of course, if I have allowed myself to get into a strategically vulnerable position, I might temper my decision. Particularly if it were a case of choosing H.Rule over Rep, which can both be used to good effect. But since I rarely know what civics the AI actually likes, I've learned to work without the need of the small bonuses. I can usually get what I need by long-term peace and solid trade.

[Ari]

Originally posted by joncnunn
Actually, there are a few more civics whose choices can be worse than default:

2. Under Labor civics: Slavery if your not planning on doing any pop-rushing. Why switch to a higher civic maintane option and introduce the chance of slave revolt event if your not going to take advantage of it.

Pop rushing can be more important at war than at peace (when you need extra units and city walls *now*). But on marathon, when the enemy just declared war and the galleys are unloading next to your city, or worse, directly attacking it, this is a horrible time for 2 (or heaven help you, 3) turns of anarchy. Having slavery already active serves as "insurance." Generally, it's a cheap price to pay, especially since the slave revolt event is so rare. Besides, even for people like me, who don't generally pop rush, there's time's when it's appropriate (getting that first build in a commerce city, or gaining a dozen or so turns on a tight race for a wonder).

[gdijedi7]

I go Universal Sufferage because I can buy things without wiping out my population.

I go Vassalage early, and keep it until I can get Free Speech. Longer if I'm in a hard war.

I go with the basic work civic until I can get Emancipation, to save a Revolution, and because none of the others really appeal to me.

Likewise, I keep a simple economy until I can get Free Market.

I go Theocracy, and generally stay there the whole game. I like the military bonus and that nobody can spy on you with their religions, though that seems to have changed in BtS, but I keep it anyway, because I'm a jerk and don't want them to make money off of me.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by Adagio
I never use Nationhood, Serfdom, Caste System and Environmentalism

Nationhood and serfdom are quite powerful tools for spiritual empires. And I am using enviormentalism in my current game; it's an arcapeligo map, so I've got lots of food and huge cities but not many heath resources, so health is a big problem, especally late game if I want to use factories at all. If it wasn't for envio, I wouldn't be able to use factories hardly at all right now.

Mercantilism I only use when I don't have contact with other civs (or only know civs that I hate)

If I'm spi, on continent maps, I usually run merc until I get astronomy. The extra trade from free market isn't much if it's just with the one or two other civs on my continent.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Yosho
If it wasn't for envio, I wouldn't be able to use factories hardly at all right now.

One of the biggest reasons for using Enviro .

Originally posted by gdijedi7
I go Theocracy, and generally stay there the whole game. I like the military bonus and that nobody can spy on you with their religions, though that seems to have changed in BtS, but I keep it anyway, because I'm a jerk and don't want them to make money off of me.

That's not really true. It's more of a win-win thing. You get an extra religion which gives +1 happy under FM and lets you build another temple/monastery, and they get +1g. They're making money - but they're not making money at your expense.
Also usually you can then trade for more gold/tech from them, because they have more gold to throw around.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Yosho


Nationhood and serfdom are quite powerful tools for spiritual empires.

It never occured to me about serfdom - though probably because I tend to have more workers than I really need - build them early.

But in the current game, I think my workers at not pulling their weight so I might work them a little harder and allow my poor slaves a little respite every, let me see, 15 turns .

A small 5 turn whipping window seems like quite a nice idea.

But I definitely agree on the nationhood thing. If you can get the happiness the a large spiritual empire can easily draft a large army in the post Nationalism world. Good for both offensive and defensive strategies.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by couerdelion


It never occured to me about serfdom - though probably because I tend to have more workers than I really need - build them early.

But in the current game, I think my workers at not pulling their weight so I might work them a little harder and allow my poor slaves a little respite every, let me see, 15 turns .

A small 5 turn whipping window seems like quite a nice idea.

(nods) Especally since slavery is now a medium upkeep civic, and serfdom is low upkeep, I usually go back and fourth between the two when I'm spi, only using slavery when I'm actually whipping. If you're spiritual, every time you have slavery up for 5 turns without whipping anyone, you've just wasted money.

Serfdom is especally useful during that middle period right after you get lumber mill and then railroad.

But I definitely agree on the nationhood thing. If you can get the happiness the a large spiritual empire can easily draft a large army in the post Nationalism world. Good for both offensive and defensive strategies.

Yeah, absolutly. You do end up canabalising a large part of your economy if you draft more then a little, but it's saved me any number of times.