AIs, Espionage, and the 1850 Longbow

[nbarclay]

I'm currently approaching 1850 in a Monarch-level game with tech trading turned off, and several AIs are still stuck with longbows as their best city defenders. I built up a massive espionage lead with lots of relatively early jails and security bureaus, and I suspect that what happened is that at least some of the AIs responded by using the espionage slider, thereby slowing down their research.

It's one thing for AIs to compromise science for espionage when they are essentially even in the tech race. But it is something else entirely if they are so paranoid about spies that they get stuck without anything more advanced than longbows and galleons to fight against modern armor and missile cruisers.

[Kuciwalker]

At that point espionage might be a better investment than tech, given how hopelessly outclassed their military is.

[Jaybe]

Alas, turning off tech trading (or even brokering) is too unrealistic for me. Science & tech leaks among "civs" IRL, so I must always permit them.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
At that point espionage might be a better investment than tech, given how hopelessly outclassed their military is.

Assuming my hypothesis is correct, the only reason why the AIs were so totally outclassed militarily was the amount of income they put into trying to remain in shouting distance in espionage. I didn't see any hint that the AIs were using espionage in a way that could possibly provide enough value to make up for how far behind they lagged militarily.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Jaybe
Alas, turning off tech trading (or even brokering) is too unrealistic for me. Science & tech leaks among "civs" IRL, so I must always permit them.

The reason why I play with tech trading turned off is that I play huge-map 18-civ hotseat games with me controlling two civs. (For me, it's fun to watch how the civs compare with each other, and when they are relatively evenly matched, the races between them can be interesting.) I haven't been able to come up with a way of managing tech trading in that kind of game that I'm happy with, so I play with it turned off.

To me, the "no tech brokering" option seems more realistic than the completely unrestricted trading traditionally found in Civ. In the real world, agreements for the sale of technology routinely include provisions prohibiting resale, thereby protecting the original seller's opportunity to pursue additional sales. The "no tech brokering" option reflects this aspect of reality, although it would be more realistic if there were a time limit before brokering was allowed rather than an absolute prohibition.

[Jaybe]

To me, the "no tech brokering" option seems more realistic than the completely unrestricted trading traditionally found in Civ. In the real world, agreements for the sale of technology routinely include provisions prohibiting resale, thereby protecting the original seller's opportunity to pursue additional sales. The "no tech brokering" option reflects this aspect of reality, although it would be more realistic if there were a time limit before brokering was allowed rather than an absolute prohibition.

My issue is that most tech advances in the game represent new ways of doing or thinking of things. Most of them before the modern age could easily "leak" just through travelers & traders. Nowdays they leak through relatives and university students (e.g., "spies" from China paid by Beijing for their intelligence gathering).

[Rockoon]

There is already a tech-leak model in the game - techs that other civs have are cheaper to research.

Perhaps with tech trading off the coefficient that effects this should be increased significantly.. and with tech brokering off increased slightly..

[Indalecio]

Originally posted by nbarclay


The "no tech brokering" option reflects this aspect of reality, although it would be more realistic if there were a time limit before brokering was allowed rather than an absolute prohibition.

That sounds interesting. I think I'd like to see an option along the lines of a 10 turn limit before trading techs. Sort've how ever trade is accompanied by a 10 turn peace treaty.

Though it would be just an option, with the ability to turn it off.

[Arrian]

I've played a number of games on prince (with normal tech trading enabled) and the AI falls much, much, much farther behind than it did in Warlords at the same settings. Some of it must be the removal of some of the AI bonuses, but I don't think that's the only reason.

At that admittedly low level, I seem to be able to maintain at least espionage point parity with each AI civ without using the slider, so I don't think the AI is going crazy with the slider.

It could be changes to the AI's terrain management. The AI in Warlords/vanilla was a cottage whore. To the extent this has been altered to improve the AI's hammer count, it will hurt their tech rate.

-Arrian