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  • Apostolic Palace trap

    Just had a hair-tearingly frustrating game and I'm trying to figure out what I can learn from this.

    I played a large map on prince and was on a medium sized continent with 1 other civ. He had an appallingly poor starting condition (the one where you get a fat cross of workable land surrounded by tundra and ice on all sides) and I was able to completely box him in, eventually nabbing 11 cities. I quickly progressed to optics and found the remaining 6 civs (one had been eliminated before I met). At this point, I had the highest score, and had the most tech (also nabbed the circumnavigation bonus before anyone else was at sea). Other civs had scores ranging from just below mine to about half of mine.

    All was progressing well until suddenly all 6 civs not on my continent simutaneously declared war. All 6 civs were of one religion (buddism) which had never made it over to my continent, so I had no votes when someone else built the Apostolic Palace. One of the civs had discovered astronomy about 25 turns earlier, and within the space of 20 turns 3 civs managed to land at different points around my continent and take cities (including Ragnar, whose berserkers I'm going to have a LOT of respect for in the future). I managed to retake all the cities, but was militarily weak and lacking a navy (I didn't have astronomy yet).

    As luck would have it, I got liberalism almost immediately after this and used it to get nationalism, which let me draft enough macemen to get some breathing room, though my unhappiness went through the roof, of course. Unfortunately, wave after wave of attackers came on.

    Ok, I can buy that everyone in the world suddenly *hates* me, but what kills me is that there's really no way to DEAL with this. I'd make (or buy) peace with one or two civs when they would all declare war on me AGAIN turns later. I went to 'free religion,' which removed most of the negatives, but it didn't stop the endless war declarations. One or two of them *never* made peace with me, and twice I finally got the 'compassion for wounded enemy' event only to have the same civ redeclare a few dozen turns later. None of my cities were buddist, so there was no way to actually make that my state religion.

    This whole thing went on for at least 150 turns and eventually, the pure military focus killed my game. I fell behind 4 other civs, and one of the waves finally took one of my cities at a time when I probably didn't have enough units on hand to retake it. I quit at that point, though I probably could've drawn out the loss for another hundred turns or so.

    I guess my question from this is, what was I supposed to do initially that would have prevented this whole fiasco?

  • #2
    It won't help now, but i'd say since you were first around the world you could have easily had astronomy first and got a navy out if you'd tried. Since you had your own continent all wrapped up it probably should have been a priority.

    The other solution is to build that stupid Apostolic palace yourself. Doesn't seem worth it when you're the only one with that religion, but the other continent being all buddhist means you have to go for it just to deny them.
    Last edited by vilemerchant; September 9, 2007, 15:39.

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    • #3
      The other advice I can give is don't bother making peace with anyone with the same state religion as the palace until you have peace with whoever resides in the palace.

      And similarly if someone declares war on you who is a full member of the palace, don't bother bringing any other full member in on your side unless it's the palace resident.
      1st C3DG Term 7 Science Advisor 1st C3DG Term 8 Domestic Minister
      Templar Science Minister
      AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by vilemerchant
        It won't help now, but i'd say since you were first around the world you could have easily had astronomy first and got a navy out if you'd tried. Since you had your own continent all wrapped up it probably should have been a priority.

        The other solution is to build that stupid Apostolic palace yourself. Doesn't seem worth it when you're the only one with that religion, but the other continent being all buddhist means you have to go for it just to deny them.
        I definitely could've had astronomy first if I'd wanted. Indeed, one of the things that delayed the inevitable by dozens of turns is that I actually got frigates a few turns before anyone else (though only a dozen or so turns at most, and not in numbers great enough to let me dominate). On the other hand, I had the colossus, which tends to make me place less emphasis on astronomy. Also, of the other civs, only 1 had actually been at lower than -1 before this, even with the religions being different - I didn't think they'd all attack. Not to mention, I'm probably biased towards not expecting naval attacks since *I* hate executing them so much (they're so tedious and wasteful with relatively little return). Building a navy was lower priority than infrastructure, since I felt so secure.

        My gripe isn't so much that I got sneak attacked by a naval invasion - that happens all too often with my playstyle (I play on prince - clearly I'm no tactical genius). My gripe is with a gameplay mechanic such that once all the other civs arbitrarily decide to go on a crusade to wipe me out, there's nothing I can do to reverse the situation in the short or even long-term, short of wiping them all from the face of the earth.

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        • #5
          It seems to me that the way the Apostolic Palace can create many-against-one wars is inherently very badly unbalanced. The mechanism might be interesting if the declaration of a crusade by the Apostolic Palace made it dramatically easier than normal for the victim to persuade civilizations that are not of the Apostolic Palace's faith, and especially civilizations of its own faith, to rally against the crusaders. But many-against-one wars tend to make things too easy when the human is on the "many" side, and generally feel ridiculously unfair when the human stands alone against multiple opponents.

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          • #6
            I guess it's sorta how Saddam Hussein felt when faced with the 'coalition of the willing' nonsense :P

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            • #7
              Originally posted by vilemerchant
              I guess it's sorta how Saddam Hussein felt when faced with the 'coalition of the willing' nonsense :P
              If you behave so badly that even the other civilizations of your own faith don't like you, and your only real supporters are barbarians, you deserve what you get. (Keep in mind that opposition to the invasion of Iraq as a matter of principle, or in some cases because nations profited from dealings with Saddam's regime, was a very different thing from actually supporting Saddam.)

              The real problem with the Apostolic Palace is that it can cause lopsided wars without the victim being broadly hated, and without bringing civilizations that honestly like the victim in on the other side.
              Last edited by nbarclay; September 9, 2007, 20:59.

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              • #8
                I've never seen the option to go to war against a heathen nation. I guess because my religions are pretty spread out that everyone has at least 1 city with it.
                “As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
                "Capitalism ho!"

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                • #9
                  Re: Apostolic Palace trap

                  Originally posted by Ari
                  Just had a hair-tearingly frustrating game and I'm trying to figure out what I can learn from this.

                  I played a large map on prince and was on a medium sized continent with 1 other civ. He had an appallingly poor starting condition (the one where you get a fat cross of workable land surrounded by tundra and ice on all sides) and I was able to completely box him in, eventually nabbing 11 cities. I quickly progressed to optics and found the remaining 6 civs (one had been eliminated before I met). At this point, I had the highest score, and had the most tech (also nabbed the circumnavigation bonus before anyone else was at sea). Other civs had scores ranging from just below mine to about half of mine.

                  All was progressing well until suddenly all 6 civs not on my continent simutaneously declared war. All 6 civs were of one religion (buddism) which had never made it over to my continent, so I had no votes when someone else built the Apostolic Palace. One of the civs had discovered astronomy about 25 turns earlier, and within the space of 20 turns 3 civs managed to land at different points around my continent and take cities (including Ragnar, whose berserkers I'm going to have a LOT of respect for in the future). I managed to retake all the cities, but was militarily weak and lacking a navy (I didn't have astronomy yet).

                  As luck would have it, I got liberalism almost immediately after this and used it to get nationalism, which let me draft enough macemen to get some breathing room, though my unhappiness went through the roof, of course. Unfortunately, wave after wave of attackers came on.

                  Ok, I can buy that everyone in the world suddenly *hates* me, but what kills me is that there's really no way to DEAL with this. I'd make (or buy) peace with one or two civs when they would all declare war on me AGAIN turns later. I went to 'free religion,' which removed most of the negatives, but it didn't stop the endless war declarations. One or two of them *never* made peace with me, and twice I finally got the 'compassion for wounded enemy' event only to have the same civ redeclare a few dozen turns later. None of my cities were buddist, so there was no way to actually make that my state religion.

                  This whole thing went on for at least 150 turns and eventually, the pure military focus killed my game. I fell behind 4 other civs, and one of the waves finally took one of my cities at a time when I probably didn't have enough units on hand to retake it. I quit at that point, though I probably could've drawn out the loss for another hundred turns or so.

                  I guess my question from this is, what was I supposed to do initially that would have prevented this whole fiasco?
                  I wish i had this happen once Ussualy the AI sits around and waits for me to finish them one by one.
                  A ship at sea is its own world. To be the captain of a ship is to be the unquestioned ruler of that world and requires all of the leadership skills of a prince or minister.

                  Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing and dancing, sooner than war

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                  • #10
                    The answer is build the AP. I always make it a priority and have had the whole world attack someone I didn't like, or I've won at least a dozen religious victories. I love the thing. As soon as I'm sure I've won and I'm getting bored I send a missionary to every AI, vote myself a victory. If you can't do that, it really helps to be able to force people to stop wars, start wars or stop trading with the heathens.

                    Mike

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                    • #11
                      You wouldn't have needed to make Buddhism your state religion to get out from that, just had one city with it. They aren't allowed to declare a crusade against a civ with their own faith. Unfortunately, as you said, there really wasn't any way for you to get it. That pretty much put you into a "no win" scenario. Had I been in that situation, I probably would have immediately bee-lined for Rifling. As long as they didn't have it (or Grenadiers), you would have been able to hold off waves of them extremely easily. It would have given you enough breathing space to try and find some alternatives (capturing a city with Buddhism would have been the best idea).

                      Bh

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                      • #12
                        Hmm..is there no way to 'import' religions? I know there is an option in the diplomacy screen for convert, but don't know if it be helpful under these circuimstances as I am away from my other PC.

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                        • #13
                          Not in SP... you can either take over a buddhist city, or try to encourage buddhism by founding a few cities and leaving them off your normal trade routes, but giving them connection to buddhism. (Ideally, found a city in their continent or on an island near them.)

                          That requires (or at least is vastly helped by) OB with them, though... which can be problematic.

                          Best is probably take all of your resources, take one city from them (even a lousy city), and rush a buddhist monk from there (or two), then bring it home and use it in a city with no or one religion...
                          <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
                          I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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                          • #14
                            This is a pretty rare scenario even if it does suck. How often do 6 civs all have the same religion? Often it is 2 or 3 at most and the situation would have been much less dire. I kind of like that this can actually happen. I like losing in unique ways and I like that the game has many of them to beat you with.

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                            • #15
                              I have to say, it seems a pretty realistic outcome.
                              You have an unchallenged lead, and suddenly they find themselves with an excuse to go after you....

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