Spying

[Lambiorix_be]

Although ennemy spies are a nuissance they do not really pose a sufficient threat that it become a priority to counter them. Most of the time I just read the message that the water has been poisoned in a city and ignore. Off course I build in every city the 2 spy'buildings but that's about it. I hardly build spies myself. The cost of sabotaging a construction is too high for the benefit it gives and most of the time the cost of stealing treasure is higher then the benefit.

What is your opinion about the spy unit?

[wodan11]

I think you've totally overlooked the most powerful use of the new espionage: getting an early Great Spy and using him to get the espionage points to steal 10-12 techs. (Yes, 10-12 techs.)

Wodan

[Lambiorix_be]

Stealing tech is not that big an advantage since I am 90% of the time the most advanced society. Sometimes some other has civ has a tech that I haven't yet (in the 2nd half of the game) but it would take me 3 to 4 turns max to gain that advantage of the other. In the beginning of the game other civs indeed have several other Techs but I do trade the techs with some of my techs since I know that after a while they will not be able to catch up. So no need for the advantage you quoted.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by Lambiorix_be
Stealing tech is not that big an advantage since I am 90% of the time the most advanced society. Sometimes some other has civ has a tech that I haven't yet (in the 2nd half of the game) but it would take me 3 to 4 turns max to gain that advantage of the other. In the beginning of the game other civs indeed have several other Techs but I do trade the techs with some of my techs since I know that after a while they will not be able to catch up. So no need for the advantage you quoted.

Using that logic, there's no need for much of anything. If you can get something one way, why consider doing it another way? Well, perhaps the second way will be cumulative with the first, thus allowing you to use the saved resources to get something else.

First off, I'm talking about the early game. Later on, stealing techs loses effectiveness (same as lightbulbing). Much of your comments deal with the late game. Sorry for the confusion.

So, thinking of the early game. If you can steal a tech which would take you 3-4 turns, that is 3-4 turns you can spend on a new tech. Agreed? Now, do this 10-12 times, and that's 30-50 turns saved.

What this can allow you to do, for example, is to ignore a whole branch or branches of the tech tree. e.g., you can ignore Aesthetics, Literature, and all the techs along that branch (except for the tech that you need for spies... Alphabet I think?). Or, perhaps Construction, Engineering, Commerce, etc. Or, all the religious techs. Then, you can get them all by repeated stealing.

If you were the tech leader before, this will catapult you to be far and above ahead of all the AIs.

It sounds though as in all games you "spread out" your research and that you generally progress "vertically" through the tech tree, without much beelining or researching advanced techs. An alternate strategy would be to beeline straight for Rifling, for example. You can skip whole chunks of the tech tree, and then use a Great Spy to get the espionage poins to steal them all in few short turns.

Wodan

[Lambiorix_be]

Thanks for the advise. I will try it in one of my next games. It's true in my case that once I found a winning strategy I rarely change it. In the real world of course this would make me predictable thus loose battles and forced to think of other tactics

[Gaius Octavius]

I wish there were an option between the first two. I DO use spies within a battle strategy, but only occasionally. If I'm behind I might also try to steal techs, but as with everything, it depends.

[GePap]

I am sure pletny of gamers like the new spy system, but I am not one of them. It is far too intrusive and too big a part of the game. The very idea of a "Great Spy" is just nuts to me. I can't think of one of the top of my head, some individual that by their spying genius has trully changed history.

Given that, I mostly ignore the whole business, and get annoyed when it is used against me.

[Slade Wilson]

Very overrated

[Kuciwalker]

I can't think of one of the top of my head, some individual that by their spying genius has trully changed history.

Alan Turing

[Will9]

Spies serve 2 main purposes for me. One, explorers in lands I'm planning to conquer and can't get their map. Two, defence against enemy spies in my largest cities.

[Jaybe]

I currently adhere to the idea that spies help in counter-espionage (so I have one in my critical cities), though I am prepared to find out to the contrary.

If I have operations overseas, I maintain a spy in reserve readiness in one of my cities (or vassals) there, ready to replace one that is discovered or returned home from a completed mission. Occasionally a city revolt (if I am impatient or desperate to nullify city defenses), or counter-espionage mission. Haven't been successful at much else.

I wonder if civ culture values have a bearing on espionage missions. In my last game I failed every time (4 or 5 of them) I tried to do something in a civ that had more culture than me -- Hattie had one city of legendary status, 2 more that were halfway there near the end-game. My espionage ratio was quite good.

[Adagio]

While I do like the new spying system, I don't like the spy units at all. The benefit is not good enough compared to the cost

How does the AI ever manage to sabotage anything? Whenever I want to use spies to see the enemy territory, I have to use two, as the first spy is always found within the first five turns, while other one might last 10-15 turns if it's lucky. This is without doing anything but walking

[LDiCesare]

I use them to fit my strategy, and they are very important, but I don't build many spies. 1 or 2 at most at any time is enough to scout, steal techs and instill uprisings. So I'm somewher between option 1 and 2 and voted banana.

[jbp26]

i never use them, but its solely because i don't really know how to make them effective. im just waiting on some post about brilliant spy usage. the great spy to steal 10-12 techs thing seems very interesting, as well as inciting disorder to strip cultural defense.

i wish spies could have some kind of impact on individual units and battles. like some kind of spy mission, steal battle plans or whatever, that would grant those units a defense penalty. theres certainly a historical precedent.

[Wittlich]

I build just enough of them so that every one of my cities will have a spy stationed there. I do this to counter any spy activities that the AI will occasionally throw at me. Of course not all of the activities are countered, but it does help. I also try to maintain a lead over the AIs concerning espionage point accumulation...so I voted for option 2.