Terrain Tile Improvements: Strategies?

[Asmodeous]

Ok, I've mentioned a few times on here that I'm still getting out of the mindset of Civ1-3 and into the mindset of Civ4 (because although similar games, the strats are VASTLY different), and am not especially good at the game, though through the help of you apolyton gurus, have been improving by leaps and bounds over the course of the past month. (Thanks!)

So I'm now working on refining my strategies for things, and had a few questions about tile improvements, and what improvements people use when, etc etc.

Let me specify the question more, so that I don't get a thousand rambly answers that don't really answer what I'm asking. XD

Ok. I've finally broken away from being a cottage fiend recently (mostly because I stopped playing Financial Civs almost instinctively for their expansion abilities), and have started adding farms, and breaking those farms into cottages later on and whatnot, but there's a few tile improvements that I see value in, but not really sure of when/where to place them.

Specifically:

Windmills. Mostly I chuck these stupid things on top of desert hills and plains hills that have no redeemable qualities to them whatsoever, because I can't think of anything better to use them for. By the time that most "growth" cities are going to get to them, having a mine on them is just causing to cause starvation or drastically slow the growth of the city that is made to just... er... grow.... or just never get used. For production cities I'll probably tuck a mine there, but really they only get used when forced most of the time. When do you find Windmills to be of the most use, if at all worth while?

Watermills. I only really ever use these on Arctic and Tundra river tiles, because ffs those tiles are worthless without them. I know these have to have a better use. They've GOT to have a purpose because people talk about them.

Workshops. I really want to use these in production cities, but at the same time they do that -1 food penalty, and in most production cities food is already difficult to come by. Sure, they give +3 hammers later on down the chain, but if I cottage these squares I get an extra food, and at towns another hammer, pulling the bonus down to +2. Plus I'll be able to use more tiles because of the extra food resource, giving the bonus of +3 hammers lesser and lesser use as time goes on. What is the secret to this +3 hammer monster to make it really worth the time to build them, because +3 hammers is a nice prize.

:/

Me.

[Saygame]

I think that I'll listen to the answers you receive carefully because you ask the very same questions I have thought about and explored often. I have some partial experiential answers.

One thought is to put the computer on unrestricted auto worker and watch what it does. Last week (sheesh after years of play) I watch the computer put down early workshops on top of flood plains. What a waste says I. Everyone knows flood plains are for cottages. Gulp. By mid game I had an absolute powerhouse city of hammers. Since I often like an early COL pathway (for Caste System artist city expansion) thru tech, I had an extra hammer there in no time. Guild gets another pretty quick. Now I think twice before I just plop a cottage down automatically on flood plains.

Windmills are great next to rivers. Especially for financial who adds a a gold to the the two gold now there(river and windmill). I also have learned to fortify a weak food city with these things. Granted only one food but it helps.

The computer (gulp again) destroys its own towns often in late games. There's been much talk out here by folks saying it really goes against the grain to destroy anything yet I've seen games in which a people pump or two is needed more in the late game than the gold pump. Heck I have a hard enough time using research or gold production in lieu of buildings or units but I've seen the computer do that often.

On watermills, I'm waiting to see other answers. Like you I used em only on ice and desert river squares for lack of anything useful.

I have become a firm believer lately in holding back the chopping ax in favor of replacement parts helping add more hammers. Now with the levee, it is even gooder (more betterer). And of course the National Park can be a killer especially with the Globe.

One last thing. Velocryx talked about terraforming cities. 10 workers and ten turns can do wonders. I often forget that I have options beyond just being a red button pusher. Nice to remember.

I think you're on the right track. I'll watch for other responses, too.



Saygame

[Rockoon]

City Specialization

I ask you.. what is the point of that city you are developing tiles for?

If its a production city, then workshops can add hammers to that city.

You might argue that for most of the game the workshop costs 1 food and you are right... but you get more hammers from 2 grassland tiles if you grow food on one and build workshops on the other. At the end of the game each grassland workshop can be putting out 2F/3H so you can then turn those extra farms into even more workshops.

City Specialization

Production Cities do not need anything but the minimum food required to work the maximum hammers.

Commerce Cities do not need anything but the minimum food required to work the maximum commerce.

Great People Cities do not need anything but the minimum food required to work the maximum specialists.

I believe your hangup is that you are trying to make generic cities.

[Rockoon]

Googling

http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&q=Vocum+Sineratio&btnG=Google+Search

[Asmodeous]

No, I am certainly specializing cities. That is hardly the point of the matter.

Me.

[Rockoon]

Your statements don't seem to jive with that.

Workshops. I really want to use these in production cities, but at the same time they do that -1 food penalty, and in most production cities food is already difficult to come by.

Why is hard to come by? Is this tundra/ice?

Plus I'll be able to use more tiles because of the extra food resource, giving the bonus of +3 hammers lesser and lesser use as time goes on.

More cottages wont give you more than the workshop will give you. Also, that +1 on towns comes about the same time as +1 on workshops.

You should not care about a meaningless thing like how many actual tiles get worked ...

The end result is important and that is how many are produced in a production city - how many are produced in a GPP farm - how much gets produced in your science cities.

Remember also that these hammers get multiplied by buildings (ex: forge, west point) and civics (ex: monothiesm, state property)

In the really simple example of 6 grassland tiles:

(universal sufferage) 6 towns = 6
(universal sufferage) 3 farms + 3 workshops = 9

...thats 50% more with workshops under universal sufferage, the ideal civic for a town.

Whats the problem? As soon as you hit 3 workshops (guilds + chemistry) you should pave over (nearly) everything with a mix of farms, workshops, and watermills and that gives you the maximum hammers for your production city. Yes, you should pave over towns.

(universal sufferage + biology) 6 towns = 6
(universal sufferage + biology) 2 farms + 4 workshops = 12

Thats 100% more with workshops under universal sufferage with biology.

Whats the problem? As soon as you hit biology you can pave over (nearly) 1/3rd of your farms with more workshops.

(universal sufferage + state property) 6 towns = 6
(universal sufferage + state property) 6 workshops = 18

Thats 200% more than the towns under both ideal civics.

Whats the problem? As soon as (if) you hit +1 you then pave over (nearly) all the farms in your production city.

What is the secret to this +3 hammer monster to make it really worth the time to build them, because +3 hammers is a nice prize.

The secret is the +3 .

(edit to fix spelling/typos)

[Willem]

Originally posted by Asmodeous
Windmills. Mostly I chuck these stupid things on top of desert hills and plains hills that have no redeemable qualities to them whatsoever, because I can't think of anything better to use them for. By the time that most "growth" cities are going to get to them, having a mine on them is just causing to cause starvation or drastically slow the growth of the city that is made to just... er... grow.... or just never get used. For production cities I'll probably tuck a mine there, but really they only get used when forced most of the time. When do you find Windmills to be of the most use, if at all worth while?

Watermills. I only really ever use these on Arctic and Tundra river tiles, because ffs those tiles are worthless without them. I know these have to have a better use. They've GOT to have a purpose because people talk about them.

Both of these improvements are the best in the game once you've researched a few techs to add to thier capabilities. You should be using them as much as possible.

Myself, I try to put Windmills on all my Grassland Hills. Since they already start out providing one food, a Windmill seems a logical choice for them since that will support one citizen, and add a number of Hammers and Gold as well. Desert and Plains Hills I usually reserve for mining unless I have an odd number for food production in the city. Adding a Windmill will even it out.

Watermills are kind of a no brainer for me as they can only be built on one side of a river, you're forced to use another improvement on the opposite bank. So you could have a Watermill on one side and a Cottage or Farm on the other.

[Yosho]

Windmills I tend to use almost all the time after I get them. THe problem with using many mines by a city is that most of them will end up sitting empty, you just can't feed that many foodless squares. It does depend, if you've already got a lot of extra food in a city and really need hammers you might want to keep a few mines, but for the most part as you get windmills and especally as they get better you should replace most of your mines with them.

Workshops, I don't use so much. They're not bad general purpose inprovements if you're using state property, but between corperations/free trade and the improvements in enviormentalism, you might not use state property at all in a given game. Without state property, the only time I use them is if I've got a city with a lot of food but no hammers (say, a city where most of it's plots are coastal plots with a few food resources); in that case it's useful to have a few of them at least until you get the basic infastructure built.

[HoldSteady]

I noticed a marked improvement in my games when I began to use cottages in the early stages of the game. Using both specialized (production, commerce and Food/GP farms) and multi-purpose cities, I began to use only 1 or two farms per city, the rest for production or cottages, and off course recource tiles for their best output in the city specialization. Having early in the game running cities with ordinairy land tiles that produce 3 commerce in non FIN civ's is quite powerfull for the science and the gold chest. Try grabbing an early religion and your tech race and income should be ok.
I can imagine bulldozing some those towns later on in the game for some farms or other stuff, when it gets worthwhile (might simulate the migration of people to the cities ).

I guess the real genius in the game shines when someone is able to plan and secure both these commerce cities, AND production cities. Up till now, I'm not sure I've managed that yet. Most of my cities stay rather multiple-purpose.

[sfeldkamp]

I usually set the governor to emphasize whatever, then automate my workers. They do a pretty good job of putting in whatever improvement will benefit the city most in the way that I want.

I don't mind cottages being replaced too much, but I usually get most of my gold from cities that I specialize for that purpose. In that city I do emphasize commerce, so usually my cottages will not be replaced.

[nbarclay]

Once the techs are researched to maximize the value of windmills, a windmill and a mine with railroad are essentially equal in value. A windmill produces two fewer hammers but gives an extra food and two extra gold (three for a Financial civ) in return. Windmills only have a clear advantage over mines when running Environmentalism. Otherwise, it depends on whether production or food and gold is more important. However, note that once all the relevant techs are discovered, the overall value of two windmills and a water mill, or two windmills and a town with Free Speech and Universal Suffrage, is greater than the value of two mines coupled with a farm to replace the food lost to using mines instead of windmills. So late in the game, windmills probably make more sense once cities are working all of the mines that available food bonuses will let them work.

The balance between towns and water mills depends on civics. With the combination of Free Speech and Universal Suffrage, but not State Property, towns are clearly better: they produce one less hammer but five more gold (which can more than pay to rush buy the lost hammer). Take away Free Speech and the value is essentially the same. Take away Universal Suffrage instead, or add State Property, and the balance shifts slightly in favor of water mills. And water mills offer a clear advantage if the choice of civics is farther in their favor.

The balance between towns and workshops is similarly influenced by civics. With all of the relevant techs discovered and no civics that provide one or the other with an advantage, a workshop and a town are essentially equal in value: five gold for a town, versus plus three hammers but minus one food for a workshop. Caste System and State Property add to the value of workshops, while Free Speech and Universal Suffrage add to the value of towns. So it all comes down to whether you expect to be using more town-friendly civics or more workshop-friendly civics.

Of course the catch to towns is that it takes time for a cottage to grow into a town. In contrast, water mills and workshops give their full value - or as much of it as the available techs permit - as soon as they are built. So late in the game, especially unless the choice of civics strongly favors towns, it can make a lot of sense to prioritize water mills and workshops over new cottages.

[Arrian]

I typically use lotsa watermills/windmills in areas that I take over later in the game. Once you have the right techs, they're pretty strong. I tend to use state property, so watermills will are even stronger.

I rarely use workshops (which is probably a mistake, given my aforementioned use of SP). I tend to use them in coastal cities lacking hills, and of course in my Heroic Epic city if the terrain warrants (sometimes my HE city will have a fair amount of food but not too many hills - which I probably chose as the HE city b/c it had a couple of non-hill hammer specials like an iron mine on grass or somesuch). But in yea olde average city, I will almost never use them.

I will occasionally use watermills before discovering the techs that give them their full potency, but again this is usually to help a really hammer-poor coastal city. Obviously windmills rock for hilly cities low on food, and watermills are the clear choice for tundra/ice cities on rivers.

-Arrian